CasinoJoy refusing to pay due to "bonus abuse" - advice?

[kernow]

Hello all,
I originally posted the below message in late July when the incident took place, but almost immeditaely removed it in order to submit a PAB. Since then, maxd has been in communication with CasinoJoy but it seems they have been no more responsive to him then they were to me in the email conversation below.
I would appreciate all constructive advice and opinion. The next logical steps would be a complaint to the LGA (haha) or attempting to take them to court in Malta...any Maltese court experience would be especially appreciated. Thanks!


-- -- -- -- --
A brief description of the scenario:
CasinoJoy offered me a VIP deposit match bonus. I played the bonus on the slot Blade and had a significant win. The slot Blade was on the list of allowed games displayed when the bonus is clicked on in the promotions tab of the cashier. My play also resulted in the bonus wager percentage bar increasing in the cashier. All fine? Apparently not.
I had completed the wagering last week, but had not initiated a withdrawal or logged in since then and yesterday I received the following email:
They seem to be relying on the "bonus abuse" rule with no solid ground to do so and keep quoting from the Welcome Bonus terms, not the VIP terms. The rest of this post will be a series of emails exchanged, as this best describes the situation, please provide any advice or opinion. Thanks!

Hello, we are contacting you from CasinoJoy Support.

We are sorry to inform you that after reviewing the game logs to validate your latest winning , our records shows that after receiving the promotion you were betting in the game Blade Marvel slot, which is a 9 line slot , and therefore excluded for this promotion. Following this , your game play, promotion and winnings have been voided.



We thank you for your understanding in this matter.

From me to casino:

Well, I am shocked to receive this email.
This email is primarily for Natalie, the VIP manager, who offered me this VIP bonus. I was going to email you to say how pleased I was with this fantastic win that I had hit playing Blade on the VIP bonus you'd given me! I hope this is a misunderstanding, as this is the biggest win I have ever had in my life!
I can now see in the VIP terms that it said the 9 line slots do not count towards the wagering, but it does not say that if I play on 9 line slots you have the right to remove all my money!! Additonally, I had no cause to suspect that there was anything wrong, because all of my play on Blade was counting towards the wagering requirement in the cashier and showed up as an allowed game in the list of games when I clicked on the bonus in the promotions page. 2 clear signals that it was OK to play Blade.
I hope this is merely a mistake and that my funds are returned to my balance promptly. As you can see, I had made no attempt to withdraw and you will also see that the cashier showed that the wagering requirement had been completed successfully.

Response from casino:

We are very sorry for your dissappointment but as written in oure terms and conditions, these actions had to be taken. Please refer to this link for the full terms and conditions; http://www.casinojoy.com/terms/terms...welcome-bonus/
In your case the 2 points that you need take note of are;
•* All 9 line slots (with the exception of Millionaires Club II) are excluded from this promotion. Dino Delight is also excluded.
and
•The Service Providers reserve the right to ban any player from its casino and remove bonus monies and/or winnings associated with the bonus monies without notice if a player displays any behaviour that the Service Providers deem in their sole discretion to be an abuse of bonus monies or a breach of these terms and conditions. Bonus abuse may include, but is not limited to, claiming multiple bonuses in a month, a player wagering the bonus money on excluded games such as ‘Craps’ and/or where bets are made with the primary intention of making substantial gains solely from the bonus money provided by any of the Service Providers (as opposed to use of the bonus monies in conjunction with funds deposited by the players themselves).

Thank you for your understanding.

From me to casino:

The terms and conditions you have quoted me are from the welcome bonus, not the VIP bonus.
Please refer this matter immediately to the VIP manager.

From Casino:

I am sorry to hear of your frustration regarding the large win you had last week. Unfortunately the game you played was excluded from the promotion as it is a 9 line slot game. We are unable to exclude certain 9 line slots individually in the bonus system as they are in game categories and so that is why the Terms & Conditions are in place. You rightly say that the welcome Ts & Cs were quoted to you but as you can see, the VIP ones are the same:



Slot Games Bonus: Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion.
CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.
Betting on excluded games is deemed an abuse of bonus money which is why the winnings have been removed leaving your initial €350 deposit. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

To casino:

Firstly, please let me note that I did not willingly break the terms. I had not seen the term regarding 9 line slots, and the slots Blade was explicitly listed as an ALLOWED game in the cashier. Secondly, I doubt very much that you are unable to remove games from the list of allowed games in the cashier. Other casinos using the same software as you remove games from the allowed list at will.



Secondly, those terms you have quoted below are not the same as the welcome bonus terms. The VIP terms are, as you would expect, more preferable terms than the welcome bonus terms. For example, the maximum bet allowed is 30% of the bonus amount, not 10%. So it is indisputable that the terms are different, and are more flexible to the player.

I have experience in the formation of terms and conditions and the legal position they create. I will now highlight the terms in question here and this will explain why the winnings should not have been removed:



Welcome Bonus terms:

· You may ONLY wager on the games above in order to fulfill the wagering requirements. All other games are EXCLUDED.

· * All 9 line slots (with the exception of Millionaires Club II) are excluded from this promotion. Dino Delight is also excluded.

· Players residing in Australia, France, China, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Greece and Israel are not eligible for CasinoJoy promotional offers or bonuses.

· The Service Providers reserve the right to ban any player from its casino and remove bonus monies and/or winnings associated with the bonus monies without notice if a player displays any behaviour that the Service Providers deem in their sole discretion to be an abuse of bonus monies or a breach of these terms and conditions. Bonus abuse may include, but is not limited to, claiming multiple bonuses in a month, a player wagering the bonus money on excluded games such as ‘Craps’ and/or where bets are made with the primary intention of making substantial gains solely from the bonus money provided by any of the Service Providers (as opposed to use of the bonus monies in conjunction with funds deposited by the players themselves).

· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.



VIP terms:

· Slot Games Bonus: Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion.

· Players are limited to one bonus at a time, claiming multiple bonuses at the same time will lead to bonus and winnings removal.

· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.







As you can see, the terms are very different in the section regarding eligible games. The welcome bonus states that "all other games are EXCLUDED" and "All 9 line slots are excluded" and then goes on to say that "we reserve the right to...remove bonus monies and/or winnings...if a player wagers the bonus money on excluded games." This is very clear, and you would be within your rights to remove the winnings had I been playing for the Welcome Bonus. But I was not. I therefore did not have to conform to these terms.

The VIP terms do not state that "all other games are excluded" they also do not state that "all 9 line slots are excluded", they state that "wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots". This different wording, coupled with the fact that the term from the Welcome Bonus stating "we reserve the right to...remove bonus monies and/or winnings...if a player wagers the bonus money on excluded games" is also not present in the VIP terms, therefore gives you no right to remove the winnings. Many casinos (and I can certainly provide many examples, along with evidence if need be) say that certain games do not count towards the wagering requirement, but this is not the same as saying that they are an excluded game that will result in winnings being removed, it means exactly what it says, that the games will not count towards the wagering but the player is within his rights to play them without risk of penalty.

From casino:

The Welcome Bonus and VIP Bonus Terms & Conditions are not the same. However 9 line slot games are excluded from both which is the point I was making. The reason the welcome bonus terms explain that ‘ALL other games are excluded’ is to show it is a slots promotion so you can’t play on table games for example. Whereas this is clearly stated for VIP bonuses, as you know yours was a slots only bonus.

The fact that 9 line slots are excluded from the wagering means that you can’t play them whilst using a bonus and/or the deposit attached to the bonus. This is bonus abuse. I can’t speak for other casinos.

On being able to remove individual games from the bonus system I can only tell you that this isn’t possible.

Once again I refer you to the relevant term in the VIP Terms & Conditions:

· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.

You have played a game that is excluded from all of our promotions and therefore you’re bonus money and winnings have been removed. The Casino Manager decision on this is final.

To casino:

Again, and for the last time, I will repeat to you that the game I played was not excluded.
The VIP terms state that: "Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). "
Nowhere in the VIP terms does it say that 9 line slots are excluded. Saying that wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots is not saying that 9 line slots are excluded, plain and simple, they are two different phrases with two different meanings. There has been no "bonus abuse".

[Silencio]

On being able to remove individual games from the bonus system I can only tell you that this isn’t possible.

Everything is possible..

Good luck.. hope your blood pressure wasn't too high before all of this started
I promote them so I'll keep an eye or two on this thread

[maxd]

... maxd has been in communication with CasinoJoy but it seems they have been no more responsive to him then they were to me ...

Actually that's not entirely true. See Casino Joy Terms unclear on wagering restrictions.

[kernow]

Sorry Max, I didn't mean to misrepresent you. It was my understanding that they did not alter the stance that they had offered me, that, in their opinion, "wagering cannot be met" = "excluded" = "bonus abuse" and therefore they were justified in confiscating my winnings.
The result for now, unfortunately, is the same. Though I thank you very much for trying your best and I'm sure adding your voice to what will hopefully become a choir will only serve to help my cause.

[vinylweatherman]

Warning?

Terms this convoluted and excluding SLOTS from a bonus belong to the rogue pit. Players deserve CLEAR terms, and one thing has always been accepted before this, wagering on SLOTS is going to be OK.

To further claim that slots play is "bonus abuse" simply because the slot has 9 lines instead of 15 or 20 is BOLLOCKS. The RTP is unaffected (or SHOULD be).

Even this "simple" exclusion is further complicated by saying you CAN play the 9 line PROGRESSIVE slot, and CAN'T play "Dino Delight". If this isn't complicated enough, the cashier has these games listed as allowed, and wagering DOES indeed count.

The casino's excuse is flaccid. They can't exclude these games in the software because they were never MEANT to by design of the software developer. It is like complaining about a toaster you just bought because it won't roast a chicken for you.

Their other "examples" cover everything possible, and even the "claiming multiple bonuses in a month" is bullshit, since the CASINO is 100% in control of how many bonuses a player becomes eligible. This allows them to OFFER as many bonuses as they want when the player is losing, and void the winnings as soon as they try to withdraw because it came from their fourth bonus that month, rather than the first.

This player was clearly NOT one with a "history of bonus abuse" since they were VIP, and had a VIP host who offered them this bonus. At a GOOD casino, a VIP player would be treated well, and would be confident that if their host offered them something, it was because they knew their history, and how they played.

I have heard of Joyland, but not this "casino joy".

I bet it's a Playtech though, even though those games first made me think it was Cryptologic because of the "Blade" slot that I remember doing well on at Intercasino a while back, and talk of allowed games in the cashier and a "wagering bar".

If I am wrong and it IS a Crypto, I will be doing three uninstalls before bed tonight.

[vinylweatherman]

Well F*** me


I NEVER thought I would see terms like THAT coming from an ECash casino! This is the SAME company behind Intercasino!

The terms are laid out in a VERY confusing manner indeed, and full of trickery.

The headline for the welcome bonus REALLY labours the impression that players can enjoy their "great range of slots" with the welcome bonus, making it appear that it is intended for slots play.

It then says "valid on games below", and then there is NOT list of games below, but a link to "terms and conditions". yet AGAIN it starts off saying "all slot games", but further down is the nasty smallprint that excluded the 9 line category, then INCLUDES one slot from that category back in again, and then EXCLUDES a single slot from a different category.

Crypto slots are more like 90% RTP in any case, and the bonus has to be wagered SIXTY times as opposed to 30x with Microgaming's 95% RTP slots. There is also a 10% of bonus max bet rule on top. There is NO reason therefore to push the software beyond it's capabilities by messing around with the exclusions of slots, especially since the TOP NOTCH Crypto wagering tracker cannot come with this kind of extreme from an operator.

The operator (GPL) then takes ownership of the SOFTWARE, claiming that THEY, and not WagerLogic, own the intellectual rights to the source code, etc.

Another beauty is that the games play as designated under Maltese gaming laws "unless altered by GPL". This, and a couple of other terms, open the door to GPL tinkering with the game designs, paytables, and rules of play. They are more or less asking players to agree to them "rigging" the games.

I had a hard time reading this because of the "bullying" pop-up live chat window that was clearly doing the "hard sell" on me, no doubt had I engaged they would have tried to get me to register and deposit before I had a chance to go through the terms properly.

I thought Playtech terms (especially for UK players) were bad, but CasinoJoy has just trumped even those. At least UK players can play ALL the Playtech slots with the bonus, and even 50x WR on 95% games compares favourably to 60x with slot exclusions and other traps.


I DID also see a term limiting players to one bonus per month, therefore the mere act of the VIP host offering the OP another is nothing short of entrapment, and is probably what they mean by "other" bonus abuse matters as well as the play history in the case.

Now,


3 uninstalls, then TV, then a deposit into Casino Rewards before bed

[maxd]

Warning? Terms this convoluted and excluding SLOTS from a bonus belong to the rogue pit.

I handle PABs and issue Warnings when things turn sour. Bryan reviews those PABs and Warnings and handles Rogue Pit updates as he deems appropriate. If you think a Rogue Pit listing should be expedited feel free to let him know that.

[vinylweatherman]

I handle PABs and issue Warnings when things turn sour. Bryan reviews those PABs and Warnings and handles Rogue Pit updates as he deems appropriate. If you think a Rogue Pit listing should be expedited feel free to let him know that.

I am still in shock to find this is a CRYPTO casino, and one under the Ecash umbrella, the same as Intercasino. I was fully expecting to find this to be the Playtech versions of these "superhero" games, and I have seen this slot exclusion tactic pulled by a few Playtechs before.

The worst I have seen from a Crypto is the exclusion of "VIP slots", which is a clear category, and easily coped with under the Crypto wager tracking system.

I used to play at Intercasino, and took the slots bonus code. I expected the "top notch" tracking and allowed games list to be something I could rely on. I lost interest when the WR went from 18x to 25x because of the near 90% RTP nature of the game. To find it is now 60% with multiple and confusing slot exclusions, even for a VIP player, is truly shocking. It's what I saw in the rest of the terms that convinced me they were "rogue", or at best had no idea what they were doing, and a limited command of the facts.

I am sure Wagerlogic would beg to differ about the term that says that GPL "own" the intellectual property rights of the casino software, and can alter the paytables, rules, and functioning of the games at their "sole discresion".

GPL is "Gaming Portals Limited", and itself owned by "InTouch casinos". This screams "white label" to me, and may explain why things have gone so horribly wrong here. The further fact that "Ecash" operates the financial side indicates that it is the same company that operates the Intercasino brands that have spawned this white label operation, along with others that have yet to come to light.

Enough signs for me to decide NOT to start playing at ECash casinos again after installing them this month after a warning that dormancy rules were about to wipe out the value of my loyalty points.

Until I know what is going on, and how Crypto/Ecash got themselves mixed up in this "dark side", I am not going to risk it. One of my best hits was on the 9 line Blade slot, and with the monthly bonus - I got the jackpot during the free spins because of the centre wild reel. WR was 18x too, not 60x as now.

[DiamondGeezer]

Another difficult case.

However I do see this one as quite straightforward in some ways. The terms were pretty clear until we get to the bit about "wagering cannot be met". Does this term mean 9 Line Slots are excluded or do they just not contribute to the wagering? Clearly it's impossible to know without further clarification. And I'm fairly sure you can find other softwares that do allow excluded games only they do not contribute to the wagering.

€18K resting on the meaning of four words. No doubt some will argue the player should have sought clarification.

This is one that could go either way if it went to court but I would make the player a narrow favourite.

[rainmaker]

.

As mentioned, a difficult case.



· Slot Games Bonus: Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion.


As for the relevant VIP condition. I can agree that it is poorly written and it may lead to some confusion. But the second sentence in the text says "Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion" with a reference to the previous sentence about 9 line slots (it indicates this: 9 line slots are excluded. Dino Delight is also excluded).

"also excluded" will in my opinion indicate that that the intention with this clause is to prohibit play on both 9 line slots and Dino Delight. I think the second sentence will count in favor of the casinos decision. If the clause did not include this second sentence, then I would agree more with you.

My conclusion is that the casino have the right to confiscate your winnings based on their T&C. I think you understood or should have understood that Blade, a 9 line slot was prohibited with this bonus. But I think the clause is poorly written, so my opinion is that the casino should pay you your winnings in goodwill and rewrite their T&C.

Good luck with your case