Interwetten confiscating winnings

[Ferretktf]

Hi all,

Something weird happened to me at Interwetten last week and I have been waiting to see if I am the only person caught up in it or not. I haven't seen any other posts on these forums, or any other that I frequent so it may be that I am out on my own.

Probably gonna "pitch a bitch" over this so don't want to go into too many details just yet except for the following.

They ran a promotion the other Sunday (10th Feb) that I participated in. I started off playing within my normal £20 per hand limits but started losing and red misted a little, raising to £30, £40 and eventually playing £60 hands. I lost my entire £1500 balance and redeposited £1000 by moneybookers, and very nearly lost all of that as well.

Fortunately, despite dropping down to my last £200 (so £2300 down at that time) I got some positive variance, turned it around, and ended up several thousand pounds up


On the Monday morning (11th) I went in to withdraw some funds and found my account locked. It remained locked all week until last Friday (15th), when they unlocked it, stated that there had been a problem with the promotion, and confiscated all my winnings, leaving me with the starting balance that I had at the beginning of play last Sunday.

They told me they had voided ALL PLAY on ANY GAME in the ENTIRE CASINO for that 24 HOUR PERIOD for EVERY PARTICIPANT

I am not a lawyer but I have studied the terms and conditions of the promotion and do not believe that there was any problem - it worked precisely as they promoted it. My initial reaction therefore was that too many people had won that day and so on the Monday they decided to find a reason to disqualify the winnings -- it took them all week but eventually they decided to pull the old "technical error" card. (as there was nothing actually wrong in reality).

I have tried e-mailing them, but they ignore my e-mails. I rang them and their customer support person said that they could not help me over the phone and that I would have to e-mail. I have e-malled again and still no response. With two weeks elapsed and nobody posting on here I am now wondering if it is only me who has had their winnings confiscated? I expected there to be a big song and dance about this? Has nobody else had similar problems with Interwetten?

Did anybody play there on Sunday (10th) -- Did you LOSE (if so were your losses refunded as surely should have been the case if they voided all play)

Advice? Sorry for the relative vagueness. Should I post the full details here or should I go straight for "Pitch a Bitch". Anybody else feeling the same as me ... i.e. waiting for someone to start a thread!! here's your chance to join me. I can't be the only one if what they are telling me is true.

I feel really aggrieved as I came close to doing my balls, luckily turned it around, and now they pull the rug from under me with some very lame excuse. Do I have any legal form of recourse through their affiliations (Malta I believe)

TIA

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Ferretktf

Did anybody play there on Sunday (10th) -- Did you LOSE (if so were your losses refunded as surely should have been the case if they voided all play)

I deposited and played that day in response to the advertised promotion.

After losing my entire and rather modest funds (in comparison to yours Ferret) I waited for the cash-back. Nothing happened.

I subsequently made a much larger deposit later that week without any sort of bonus attached and won about 50 euro. Cashed out. My account got locked before the money arrived back in my Bank account.

Bonus or no bonus you will get grief from greedy corporates.

Emails ignored. Good-bye Interwetten.

.

[Ferretktf]

Thanks for this.

You have confirmed that they did not void all play - they merely confiscated winnings -- so it was the classic case of keep the winnings from the losers while refusing to pay the winners. Tell the winners there was a "technical error" (when there quite clearly was not), and tell the losers nothing.

Interesting to see that you got your account locked though -- presumably they locked everyone while they dtermined if they won or lost -- what explanation did they give you (I am presuming they have unlocked your account now and that you have been able to cash out)

I'm now looking to see if anybody else had their winnings confiscated, or indeed if anybody actually won and was able to keep what they won.


Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by Ferretktf

Thanks for this.

You have confirmed that they did not void all play - they merely confiscated winnings -- so it was the classic case of keep the winnings from the losers while refusing to pay the winners. Tell the winners there was a "technical error" (when there quite clearly was not), and tell the losers nothing.

Interesting to see that you got your account locked though -- presumably they locked everyone while they dtermined if they won or lost -- what explanation did they give you (I am presuming they have unlocked your account now and that you have been able to cash out)

I'm now looking to see if anybody else had their winnings confiscated, or indeed if anybody actually won and was able to keep what they won.


Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

Interwetten have stolen about £1,500 off me. I have been waiting for a response from them and so have not posted anything here as yet.

[vinylweatherman]

This sounds like bullshite!

If the error was with the PROMOTION, there would be no need to void ALL GAMEPLAY for that day. If this was a cashback, was this one on WAGERING, or on the amount won or lost. If on losses, there would be no real problem, as players would already have lost the money anyway. If on WINNINGS, the casino might find they had offered too much, and want to get out of the offer, but again, no need to void gameplay. If on WAGERING, it could be down to bad design, similar to the Big Dollar fiasco some while back. This could result on a guaranteed +EV for players who played games, even if they lost, because the cashback would put them into profit (this is what befell Big Dollar). If the problem was supposedly with the underlying games, then this is a SOFTWARE ISSUE, i.e, the software was "cheating", but in a way that favoured the PLAYER, and it would NOT be enough to pull the promotion, but that they would have to find a way to void winnings. This is a HUGE hit to their credibility, as we now view their software with suspicion, and wonder whether they would have been as proactive were the error to have favoured the CASINO (from past experience where this has been the case, I would say NO!).

There was a previous issue where they refused to pay a player by a convenient means (but one allowed in the T & C), and insisted they take a cheque, which was highly inconvenient, and would involve long delays and several layers of fees. This player only wanted their deposit back after being told they would NOT be paid according to the general provisions in the T & C, but that they were viewed as an "exceptional circumstance" which meant adverse treatment for their withdrawals.

I would say PAB, but also tell us what this promotion entailed, so we can see if they are just plain daft enough to design another "Big Dollar" type +EV offer, or whether they are trying to cover up a software bug by pretending it is related to this specific promotion.

[Ferretktf]

Ok - this was the promotion ...

Sunday Cashback Madness

How it works:

For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.

Terms and Conditions:

This promotion is valid to all Interwetten Casino Real Money customers.
Promotion days in February 2008 are:
Sunday, 03.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 10.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 17.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 24.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET

This promotion is subject to Interwetten Casino standard rules, terms and conditions.

To qualify for the cashback bonus you must make a transfer of funds from your Sportsbook real money account in to Casino chips and wager at least EUR 100,00 on the respective promotion day at Interwetten Online Casino.

For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account.

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cashback Bonus.

Interwetten Casino reserves the right to refuse all promotions and bonuses to players who do not comply with this condition.

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into.

As you can see the offer was ... For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.


This is exactly what happened. Everytime I lost EUR 100, I received EUR 10 back, in other words the promotion delivered exactly what it said.

This still didn't stop me losing nearly £2500 before I turned it around - largely through red misting that actually worked in my favour for once



Now this "Sunday Cashback Madness" was different than a lot of cashback offers, which tend to be phrased like this

from Spin Palace:-

- 30% Slots Cashback Bonus* - maximum Bonus of £300
(based on accumulative loss incurred at all Slots)

and Kerching

Play any slot game at Kerching Casino this Valentine's Day and earn yourself up to £50 cashback.
Loss is defined as total stakes minus total payout for the entire promotional day.
The cashback is 50% of all losses within the promotional period.

This promotion was quite clearly worded ... not 10% back of your total losses across the day but "For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account. " Not only that, but as that is exactly what happened, they clearly amended their software to enable that to happen.

Yes it was quite an attractive promotion, but they did term it "madness"! But as my roller-coaster ride showed, certainly not a guaranteed certainty.


However, at some point after the event they decided that they did not like the promotion after all and locked my account (along with others by the looks of things)

They locked it on Monday, and it was not until Friday that they unlocked it and came up with the following explanation

Due to a technical problem, an erroneous bonus payment was issued in the Casino on February 10th, 2008.

The bonus was wrongly issued after each Casino transaction and then credited to your bonus balance, not on the following day as it is specified in the terms and conditions.

Furthermore, bonus credit was able to be generated through the bonus itself, which is ruled out by the bonus regulations.

The bonus terms stated: “The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days.”

Due to the terms and conditions, the promotion had to be cancelled, as there had been an obvious technical failure:

• “Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.”

In your case, all casino transactions starting from Feburary 10th, 2008, 00:00 a.m., had to be voided.

They then deducted a very large amount (several thousand pounds) from my account.

Now their terms and conditions do state "on one of the following days" - but then does not list the days, so that sort of invalidates the clause rather

Even so I don't see what relevance this has to the amount of the bonus itself (the bonus as per the terms and conidtions had no wager requirement so whenever they paid it it would be mine immediately, be that on the Sunday, the Monday or next month)


To me this is clearly NOT a Technical Reason but instead a promotion that they decided they wanted to welch on after the event. It then took them five days of trawling through various T&C's clearly looking for an out, before they weakly opted for "Technical Reason"

For me though the painful things is that I very nearly bust out £2500 - and had I done so, would I have got a refund because of this? No, I would not have heard a dicky bird - as our friend "Roar" from earlier in the thread has proved.

They clearly looked down at who had won that day and decided to revoke their winnings, while keeping the wagers of those who had lost. This is disingeneous at best and potentially verging on fraud at worst.

Can a Casino really decide to do this on a whim and get away with it?


What action can I take here? They refuse to answer my e-mails or telephone calls

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

This sounds like bullshite!

If the error was with the PROMOTION, there would be no need to void ALL GAMEPLAY for that day. If this was a cashback, was this one on WAGERING, or on the amount won or lost. If on losses, there would be no real problem, as players would already have lost the money anyway. If on WINNINGS, the casino might find they had offered too much, and want to get out of the offer, but again, no need to void gameplay. If on WAGERING, it could be down to bad design, similar to the Big Dollar fiasco some while back. This could result on a guaranteed +EV for players who played games, even if they lost, because the cashback would put them into profit (this is what befell Big Dollar). If the problem was supposedly with the underlying games, then this is a SOFTWARE ISSUE, i.e, the software was "cheating", but in a way that favoured the PLAYER, and it would NOT be enough to pull the promotion, but that they would have to find a way to void winnings. This is a HUGE hit to their credibility, as we now view their software with suspicion, and wonder whether they would have been as proactive were the error to have favoured the CASINO (from past experience where this has been the case, I would say NO!).

There was a previous issue where they refused to pay a player by a convenient means (but one allowed in the T & C), and insisted they take a cheque, which was highly inconvenient, and would involve long delays and several layers of fees. This player only wanted their deposit back after being told they would NOT be paid according to the general provisions in the T & C, but that they were viewed as an "exceptional circumstance" which meant adverse treatment for their withdrawals.

I would say PAB, but also tell us what this promotion entailed, so we can see if they are just plain daft enough to design another "Big Dollar" type +EV offer, or whether they are trying to cover up a software bug by pretending it is related to this specific promotion.

I'm not familiar with Big Dollar's issue. Do you have a link?

On this promotion it was run for 2 weeks. The first week I had to deposit 3 or 4 times but eventually had a good run and cashed out £2k profit.

The second week they seem to have stolen everybody's winnings.

It was the same promotion both weeks, so I'm not sure why they have changed their tune.

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by Ferretktf

Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

Nope! Our friend Caruso had the same problem:-

http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=32659

Strikes me he spotted the loophole error in the promo, took full advantage of it and then got his account locked & winnings confiscated under the "we screwed up but we're going to make you pay for our error" rule.

This is a very sad state of affairs. I hope everyone gets their full balance & winnings returned, and soon.

KK

[klankenstein]

I got caught up in this as well, had some really good winnings on Sunday then they just closed my account and took nearly £4000 off my balance. Have emailed them twice and had no response either time - looks like they're just ignoring the issue. If you're going to PAB on this count me in.

[vinylweatherman]

The manipulator is clear, play €100 hands at, say, Blackjack and get either €10 cashback or €100 or €150 winnings. This works because 10% cashback is played on EACH losing hand, and not the total loss on the day.
The CORRECT response would be to remove the bonuses credited, and recalculate the amount due on the TOTAL loss for the day. This casino seem to be behaving in a rogue manner, they are voiding ALL bets of winners, yet are quite happy to string along the LOSERS by letting them keep the erroneous bonus credits so long as they lost overall.
To resolve this in a FAIR manner, they should use a solution that is the SAME, regardless of whether the player won or lost. Worse, they seem to have run this the previous week, and must have known there was a problem, but seemed happy to let it continue until enough players spotted the loophole.

If they are voiding ALL transactions, they MUST refund LOSERS, as well as restoring winners to their starting balance. The T & C for the promotion DOES NOT ALLOW THIS ANYWAY, they state that the resolution should be:-

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

This states that the resolution they have allowed themselves is to

1) cancel the promotion
2) recover the erroneously paid prize credits from ALL PARTICIPANTS

They seem to have decided to do something completely different, and something that lets them "have their cake and eat it".

They seem a good candidate for "not recommended", although they fall short of full blown "rogue" status, although this depends on how they handle this in the following couple of weeks.