AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc

[wootchris]

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:

"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay him any of his winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

[wootchris]

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:

"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

[Vesuvio]

In a way it's refreshing to see the indefensible logic of so many on-line casinos stated so bluntly.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.

Inept grammar aside, it's the old story - playing a bonus and trying to keep some of the "free" money is "abuse". Players are supposed to be gullible enough to be drawn in by the incentive and lose their deposit, but if they play sensibly and get lucky the casino won't allow itself to be "gullible", so it'll just steal any winnings. Sounds like a neat get-rich-quick scheme to me.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom

Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos.

I'm just quoting the above as an example of the way on-line casinos are trying to blur the line between fraud and simply taking them up on their bonuses. The fact that two activities cost you money doesn't make them equivalent - someone who takes advantage of a 2-for-1 offer in a shop isn't a shoplifter.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom

These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino.

This is bordering on the comical How dare the player try and turn the ("free") bonus to his advantage! Note the casino is offering the player an advantage - it's not a case of fraud or exploiting some flaw in the software. If you design a promotion so that the player has an edge you have to accept he might win. Advertising costs.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom

Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.

These are some of the weakest "catch-all" terms I've seen at an on-line casino. As taking advantage of bonuses isn't fraud they don't actually seem to have a case here. Anyway, quoting these terms is always a sure sign of a rogue casino.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom

Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.

A strong contender for the most mind-numbingly stupid cliche of the on-line casino industry. A player's won, let's say, $1,000,000 from a $100 deposit, meeting all the terms and conditions. His balance is now his own money, but the casino gives back just the deposit... and no harm's done Of course if you can get away with returning deposits to winning players and keeping the deposits of losers you've got the perfect business - even if any genuine regulation would see you closed down for fraud

[frufrugirl]

gosh, it's basically saying "If you use our bonues in conjunction with your money, we reserve the right to tell you how to play. Players who do not sufficiantly dink around with their money and lose at the rate required will lose further access to our casino in an attempt to prevent the fraud of winning".......

[nafanny29]

From their site:

"Magicbox Casino is a fully licensed Online Casino, regulated by the Government of Antigua and operating under the supervision of the Director of Offshore Gaming. We adhere to a strict code of conduct and our high level of integrity has earned us the trust and loyalty of our numerous clients."

Makes me want to

[sirius]

These casinos have been blacklisted for years on my site for similar behaviour. There have been countless threads at winneronline too going back a few years and many here too. They need to understand how to run a casino properly and ethically.

It's one of the few groups of casinos I've never bothered playing. The Strydom guy must be new and he's put the final nail in the coffin. I also wonder if this group is connected to any other, maybe even a Microgaming powered group. I know Swiss Casino was initially owned or partly owned by an existing online operator but I never found out which one.

WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Vegasred denies winnings, based on bonus abuse.
WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Magic Box Casino "voids" winnings! Little to no explanation!
WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Casino Las Vegas - removes bonus and winnings for "abuse" (ie: winning)

[rreevy]

This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

You mean terms that allow you to take away a player's winnings because you don't like the way they played? I notice those are conveniently vague. BTW I have yet to be presented with a list of T&Cs I have to read before walking into a land-based casino... but then I don't go to land-based casinos very often, so what do I know?

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.

I think Vesuvio summed this up pretty well. Players can use online casinos as a 'quick rich project' [sic], because casinos have bonuses that are beatable. Why do they do that? I think an online gambling writer put it best when he said that 'if you have a conveyor belt with hundred-dollar bills on, it makes more sense to stand at the end with a big box than to catch a few bills flying off the sides'.

This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw.

Don't offer bonuses like that, then. Or change the betting limits for bonuses so that's harder to do.

The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. [...] This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity.

There are sites telling you how to make money off bonuses, but I have yet to see one advising how to defraud casinos, which is not the same thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'even betting', but I can tell you that card counting is not disallowed - it's not illegal anywhere I know of, and [land-based] casinos don't have T&Cs banning it. If they did, they'd lose loads of players who they make money from because they can't actually count cards that well. Also, no land-based casino would be able to steal a player's winnings because that player counted cards. Has anybody ever heard of that happening?

BTW When will casinos get this? Using bonuses profitably is NOT FRAUD. You start circulating people's information around because they've done nothing wrong other than be smart, and you'd be playing with fire in a well-regulated jurisdiction.

I'm sorry if I've been a little vitriolic in my criticism of this text. But casinos offer bonuses because they do work in terms of luring players in. Likewise, card counting made blackjack the most popular game in land-based casinos... and the most profitable for the house. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[sdaddy]

Once again, if this casino group feels so strongly that certain forms of play are "abusing" their bonus offers, then it needs to write such specific restrictions in its T&C. Ambiguous "we reserve the right to confiscate" clauses are simply not acceptable practice at any reputable casino.

[nafanny29]

If casinos dont want to attract "bonus hunters" then dont offer +EV bonuses... Period, Most reputable casinos are after customers who like a gamble and are allowed to sometimes get lucky. Any decent casino will court such players and accept the fact that they will get lucky every so often. Hell even I have won in Vegas occasionally and my comps dont disappear as a result (in fact they improve amazingly)

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by wootchris

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:


So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

I have no idea.

They are clearly a bunch of crooks. They knew the player was going to play in a manner that meant he was expected to win, because they've got a shared database and he's signed up to other casinos just to get the bonus. Apparently this is fraud????

Just to be clear: casino plays in a manner where casino is expected to win (i.e. all the time without a bonus) - not fraud
player plays in a manner where player is expected to win - fraud

They have every right to exclude players, but they need to do it when they sign up, BEFORE they deposit. Or else change their terms so that the bonuses aren't attractive.