Major Absolute Poker Issue

[bernynhel]

[quote=SeattleSinner;187562]... have been noticing some weird activity which may even involve seeing opponents cards.

I know for a fact that it is possible as, during 1 hand of a sit n go I could see everyone's hand at the table. Only happened once and I can't explain it let alone understand how someone could cause it at will but there you go.

[satchmo]

I dont know if they have a super user account, but i would not belive in that. As the problem itself would be that a user has a specific downloaded/flash version with some changed code in it. That would mean that some programer on the inside have either made a test version a long time ago, i dont see the point of this either. The so called bots used in the casino development, are running night and day to create statistic to see that the game is proper. (we all know some casinos also use those on live versions). So there would be no need to actually have a different code to see the cards on a live function, only purpose is to be able to cheat.

The rng makes millions of shuffles of the deck every minute, so it would be impossible to read it before the cards were dealt, all hands are saved in the databese, at the same time they were dealt.
The cards are only withing the database and never sent to any otehr users.
There could be cheating going on if i have access to the database.
A graphix glitch that missing the top texture, and therefore showing the card. Possible but they are fixed fast. There are some cases in CS that has used the flaws of a graphix card to make walls invisible, so that player sees the others.

And this might be a possible theroy instead of changed software.

Lets take an example:
World of Warcraft is a mmorpg that has over 9 millions player worldwide, the users pay something like 10$ a month. Blizzard are really happy about this.
The you have the people that wants to play but dont want to pay for it.
Some nifty programmer cracks the packets to the server, and recreates the database, and voila suddenly you can create and play on you own server at home, and not having to pay for it.

So manupilating the code to make a specific show all cards program. Nahh to much work.
Using bot play tactics. Nahhh they are designed to flaw also.
Getting acces to read the database itself. Possible and the easiest way.

And btw im not working or affiliated or something else, for these people, just shedding some light and theories.


Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero.

[SeattleSinner]

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The player’s and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other player’s hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

I think this response says nothing. How can they say there was no chip dumping when there is blatant evidence. This issue actually hits me personally as I was playing 25/50 FL at this site in July when I had a good month. I had one session where I lost in excess of $1,000 to one of the players in question. I have always felt that AP was running a shady opertion but I never thought it was ever to this type of magnitude. I will not be depositing here anytime soon unless I am assured of the security.

P.S. Was the WatchDog actually found to have an IP linked to Absolute Management? If this is in fact true it would appear that Absolute has something to hide. I honestly believe that based upon the response they have administered it would appear they are involved IMHO.

[pokeraddict]

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Lots0, do you feel that the hand histories/PT screenshots are altered or do you feel multiple players can play 90/70/25 with an infinite river AF and a 95% W$atSD and win 30+bb/100 in limit or 300+ptbb/100 in NL? Also do you not feel these players chip dumped? How do you feel about AP allowing these players to play nearly a week after the first email to them and several days after the news broke? Does that help you trust them more, especially since so many feel AP is in on it too?

You've been presented with a mountain of proof, if you choose to ignore it that is your choice. BTW good job quoting the just about only person that agrees with you and ignoring virtually every other post in those 2+2 threads. I wonder if that post has more to do with the chip dumping anyway as obviously chip dumping is collusion.

BTW this hand grabber as you call it is the program used to convert UB hh's into usable PT hh's. The only thing I can figure that you are talking about is datamining which I don't agree with either and has long been debated.

If you feel the hh's have been altered then you may take the hand #'s off the hundreds of posted hh's and get them from AP yourself and compare. Also you can PM Adanthar at 2+2 and you will get a massive db of hands involving these cheats and you can make your own db. If you believe a player can win huge over the some of the biggest online poker names with these stats then I just don't think you understand the stats at all that have been presented to you numerous times. It's simply impossible, it's not even a 1 in a million, it simply can't happen. As mentioned these aren't even stats you would find in a play money game and if you did see it then this player would even lose big in one of those.

I can't figure out why you're saying this isn't proof. Either the stats and hh's are altered or they are not. Beyond that there really isn't much to argue. You seem to be a pretty die hard supporter of AP and that is of course your right but I have to wonder why. I guess you simply don't understand the seriousness of the issue, the PT stats involved, the hand histories showing the cheats actions, the chip dumping and the way Absolute Poker has botched this if they weren't involved to begin with.

First: The Watchdog is a pretty obvious shrill. His posts on 2+2 involve things like "I'll have my friend look into your account problem".

As I have said many times AP has been on a nasty shill/spam campaign at 2+2 for quite some time. You have to love a shill named "The Watchdog". As you might know I mod at 2+2 and his account has been linked to 2 other AP spammers/shills, one of those 2 finally admitted to being AP management. I believe it was their VP. Go search "Pokermachine" at 2+2 and you will see what I mean.

[Pinababy69]

Originally Posted by pokeraddict

If by reading the endless hh's and seeing the PT screenshots with his infinite AF and his and other's impossible stats you are not a believer then I do not think you understand how to read hh's and Poker Tracker.

What is so funny is that one of the accounts just dumped $27,000 in 10/20 NL in what is a classic chip dump. In one hand he called an allin with an unmatched 34.

I didn't understand PT totally PokerAddict, until you fully explained in a later post. I was somewhat on the fence up until that point, but your explanation of the stats totally convinced me.

I was reading at 2+2 the other night while the chip dumping was going on, and the players were posting the HH's. The 3,4 hand almost made me choke, simply unbelievable. And then to actually act surprised, and like he couldn't understand why he was getting such stick from the observers.

That chip dumping episode went a long way in convincing me as well...and there is no way that it was anything BUT chip dumping. NO ONE who can win a 1K buyin, could be stupid enough to legitimately lose as badly as he did that night.

Originally Posted by Zoozie

I have read the whole thread. Unless the PT screenshots are fake which I doubt since they come from several known pro's - there is no shadow of doubt that rigged games is happening. Not just slightly rigged, but rigged so bad it is too obvious, which is hard to explain why they would cheat this much.

I couldn't agree more Zoozie. I also have spent many, many hours reading every thread and every post....and trying to digest it all.

Originally Posted by Casinomeister

I've asked Absolute Poker to respond to this thread. Hopefully they will

Any word from them Bryan?

Originally Posted by The Watchdog

The whole issue is just amusing...

Amusing? You should go on over to 2+2 and post those sentiments...ha ha. Now THAT would be amusing. Have some negative rep on me. I'll come back to you later.

Originally Posted by pokeraddict

It seems from a 2+2 thread most of the non believers do not use Poker Tracker and all of the Poker Tracker users are 100% believers. This leads me to believe the stats might need more explaining to help non PT users fully understand........

How is this player flopping every hand, raising almost every hand preflop, winning every showdown he puts money in the pot for and taking the biggest winrate in history? There's only 1 answer. Any poker player knows a 94/72 player is a total maniac fish that is going to go bust very quickly.
Combine this with the massive chip dump last night of roughly $30,000 calling hands like an unimproved 34 on the river for $1700 while getting accused left and right for previous cheating and the fact AP is ignoring everybody demanding an immediate statement is really damning. Why hasn't AP locked these accounts yet? Why has AP ignored players since even before this went public? One of these players chip dumped an entire bankroll midweek last week. That's why this finally broke. Why would AP allow that?

This was the post I referred to earlier PokerAddict. I read it a few times to make sure I totally grasped it. While I do play poker, and do okay (at times), I don't use PT and didn't really grasp the "stats" part of it. Now I do, no problem. And it was like an epiphany when it sunk in. Thank you for explaining it in terms that even I could understand.

I bolded the paragraph I thought most important. You are so right. I've seen players that DO play like this before...BUT, they don't last. Eventually, the luck runs out and they certainly don't go through an entire tourney playing this style, and win it. Simply not possible.

Originally Posted by jetset

I think they may have to do better than that as this report gathers momentum.

They are gonna have to do WAY better Jetset. I read a few of the Absolute replies to players over at 2+2, and to say they're pathetic is putting it mildly. A few of them were a standard "form" type letter, that basically said nothing untoward had happened...other than a really bad player had a hole lot of luck. No typo there Jetset...they used hole as opposed to whole. Freudian slip perhaps?

Originally Posted by lots0

The other thread has has a response from Absolute Poker.

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out. Kinda like chicken little, running around yelling that the sky is falling.

The response from Absolute wasn't actually from the pokerroom itself, but from the affiliate manager Danielle. At least that was my understanding. Hardly surprising that the affiliate manager is going to say that all is A-OK in Absolute Land.

As far as spreading rumours, this is much more than a rumour..and I have to wonder lots0, how much poker do you play yourself? You either don't understand the game, or perhaps like myself originally, you are having some problems with understanding the PT stats? Or maybe you believe the HH's are faked?

I know a few places this isn't posted yet, and if I get time, I intend to rectify that ASAP. Gotta feed Google.

Originally Posted by BBKPoker

Second: Here's an example of a hand from PotRipper where he made it very deep into a $1,000 buyin online NL tournament:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI$428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]


So he calls for his stack with 10 high, no draws on the turn? I'm sorry, this is frankly unbelievable for a high stakes winning limit and no limit player with very strong win stats.

Another super-suspicious hand to me involving another questionable account. This time, GrayCat:



STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI$4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

So, GrayCat caps the betting preflop, putting in the fourth bet, only to check-fold on an extremely harmless looking flop of 2/2/5?

What hand could he possibly have capped with that he can the so conveniently get away from when his opponent flops a 5 with his pocket fives for his monster hand of 5s full of deuces?

Well put BBK. Those two hands are simply beyond explanation. GRAYCAT had no problem calling the raise pre-flop, but folded on a $200 bet on a 2,2,5 flop? Ha ha ha....yeah, blind luck. He just guessed right (time after time after time...into infinity).

Originally Posted by ZFitz

The hand BBKPoker is the one that I found most amazing of all - calling all in with 10 high on the turn when down to the last two of a mtt.

Yeah, that hand was another gem. Yet another player with the kind of blind luck and instinct the rest of us can only dream about.

Originally Posted by pokeraddict

Yeah I figured I could point that out in a subtle way. As I have said many times AP has been on a nasty shill/spam campaign at 2+2 for quite some time. You have to love a shill named "The Watchdog". As you might know I mod at 2+2 and his account has been linked to 2 other AP spammers/shills, one of those 2 finally admitted to being AP management. I believe it was their VP. Go search "Pokermachine" at 2+2 and you will see what I mean.

Thanks for that Pokeraddict. I had seen a post at 2+2 that implied that Watchdog's IP had been linked to an employee of Absolute, but couldn't find it when I went back to look.

Bryan, is there any way that you can do a check on Watchdog's IP? If he is indeed associated with Absolute, then he has no business posting in this thread unless it's going to be in an official capacity. I don't suppose that anyone from Absolute has ever posted here before...so you could actually compare the IP's maybe? Wishful thinking probably.

[GaryWatson]

Collusion

Whether you play in brick & mortar card rooms or online, poker players are always aware of the possibility of collusion. Collusion is known as cheating and occurs when two of more people at a table know what the other is holding in their hands and work together to cheat others out of their money. Collusion destroys the integrity of the whole industry not only at Absolute Poker. Anyone who attempts to collude while playing at Absolute Poker will not only be permanently banned from Absolute Poker but will also be entered into a black list data base.

Absolute Poker has state-of-the-art algorithms and software in place to immediately identify any fraudulent or unscrupulous activities. Aside from just the algorithms, activity on Absolute Poker watched for by a full time team of professionals, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The algorithms will track any collusion through Absolute Poker's sophisticated software as well as monitored 24 hours a day seven days a week by our team of professional analysts. There are a variety of strategies used by our analysts to uncover and identify collusion in conjunction with our set algorithms. Any complaints will be taken extremely seriously by Absolute Poker and investigated to there fullest.


Hackers

Absolute Poker is secure in the transfer of any information between its players and our Absolute servers. We utilize the internationally accepted industry standard SSLv3/TLSv1 encryption algorithm to protect your information as it transfers between our client application running on your computer and our servers. So whether it is credit card, your name, password, your cards, your personal address and any other private information is protected. Player cards are sent directly and exclusively to the individual player's computer without ever being susceptible of being hacked. Also no other computer playing at your table can see your face down cards. This security is the best available and prevents any hacking and ultimately collusion to take place.

Just wondering what the algorithm could be. Any suggestions?

[lots0]

I can't figure out why you're saying this isn't proof.

As Absolute Poker Management pointed out the data sample used is so small it could very well have been 'cherry picked' by some of the posters.

Now if Chip Dumping and some strange wins were not able to be easily explained away by other explanations, like strange unorthodox playing styles, brain farts at the table, posted hand histories that have been cherry picked, incorrect hand histories being posted or the Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised... I might even agree with you.

But there are way too many 'other' more plausible explanations for these hands and then Pokeraddict there is the fact that you personally have an axe to grind with Absolute Poker and therefore you immediately jump to the conclusion that AP Management is at fault, with absolutely no proof (pun intended) and no matter if AP Management is at fault or not.

This whole thing is real simple to resolve... If you and your friends don't trust Absolute Poker don't play there, even continue to tell people you don't trust them if you want, but don't go accusing people or business of real crimes with out some PROOF that they are guilty and what has been provided and called 'proof' by some would never be used as evidence in any court in the Western World.

You know I could be wrong about this whole thing, the AP management could have went insane, lost their minds entirely and decided to risk their hundreds of Millions of dollars a year in pure profits just so a hand full of player accounts could make a a few hundred thousand a year... But I don't think so.

@Pinababy69,
Are you are aware that the Poker Tracker site has been recently hacked and that makes ALL the Poker Tracker data suspect at best.

[GaryWatson]

CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot

Ok I'll try to work this hand out

CRAZYMARCO - Checks

POTRIPPER considers weakness

POTRIPPER - Bets $13500

CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310

POTRIPPER now has to think hard "do I call 200k to win a relatively low pot? I only need to catch a 10 or a 9 on the river card or this guy has just put 200k on the line for a laugh and I already have the highest hand?"

*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***

POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)

CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)

Conclusion - I put CRAZYMARCO on a mega bluff. I put POTTRIPPER on a rediculous call with everything beating him from pocket 2's +

any 1 of 3 remaining - 4's
any 1 of 3 remaining - 7's
any 1 of 14 remaining - J's to Aces

This is all for a pot that didnt need to go that deep

P.S. I dont claim to be a high stakes player but that looks exceptionally odd. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

[pokeraddict]

Now if Chip Dumping and some strange wins were not able to be easily explained away by other explanations

Chip dumping is forbidden in every poker room. It's an insta lock for an account. Essentially it means that players have committed fraud in one way or another and are trying to hide it. Here is an article I wrote about it a couple of years ago for a site I used to own.

http://www.rakerebatereview.com/chipdumping.asp

Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised

I think this really shows your lack of poker and industry knowledge. This is likely why you don't understand. PT's site being hacked has nothing to do with its functionality. In fact, in the end it turned out nothing beyond web pages being messed with. Also all data is compiled by the user. In Absolute's case all hh's are stored on your hard drive. PT auto imports these hh's. They really can't be cherry picked.

As Absolute Poker Management pointed out the data sample used is so small it could very well have been 'cherry picked' by some of the posters.

Link? AFAIK AP management has not made any comment which is absolutely ridiculous. An affiliate manager made a post at PAW (the one quoted in this thread too) but nobody in AP's security or management has commented to this point. If I'm wrong here please link and quote it for us.

then Pokeraddict there is the fact that you personally have an axe to grind with Absolute Poker

You keep mentioning this, all I have done is post their behavior of the past year in one thread where somebody asked me why I thought AP was so shady. If you think spamming, shilling, retroactively changing bonus terms, changing affiliate terms on existing players, changing rakeback terms, lying about the %'s paid on/to US players, repeated changes to the BBJ after player money was already in the pool and now this mishandled disaster are qualities of a poker room you want to defend that's your right. All I have done is post the facts. There is no disputing AP has done all of the above things since the UIGEA. The fact that a poker room I've been warning people about for a year is involved in this just proves how right I have been about them.

You seem to have an axe to grind with me about exposing AP's many shady ways. On top of that your constant defending of them in this situation really makes me wonder what your agenda is. Maybe you just have no idea about poker and/or poker stats. My agenda is to make sure players are warned about staying away from shady poker rooms. That's it. I'm obviously not making any of this stuff up. I can and have proven everything I've accused them of beyond virtually anybody's doubt but yours.

[pokeraddict]

Gary, that's why it one of the endless hands posted. Not only could the T9 be drawing dead but even if it isn't there is virtually no way it could be a winner now. All in HU in a $1000 with a 6 outer that could be drawing dead? It's not even the worse hand. The fold for an $80 all in raise into a $10,000 pot is the worst closely followed by the folding after capping the flop when 522 flopped. Of course there are hundreds of others that rank right up there.