Major Absolute Poker Issue

[SlotsWizard]

...

[The Ronin]

This is really disturbing, one could make the connection, that if AP is using "house players" to cheat and win, that other poker rooms will do the same. Or worse, have been doing so for a long time.

This type of behavior will certainly not help the argument of revising the Unlawful internet gaming enforcement act. Not to mention player confidence.

I look forward to seeing the evidence. I also hope it can be compressed so new players can understand it quickly.

[The Ronin]

i just don't get one thing. does this mean someone FROM absolute is using this account for their own benefit? or to make money for the site? or what? i don't get who is accessing the accounts / whether this implies that anyone could somehow make a "superuser account" (this [censored] is getting way too james bond).

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&fpart=4&vc=1

bknollenberg from 2+2 asked this question, and I have to echo it. Is AP hurting so bad, they need to rip off high stakes players just to make the rent payment They just started that high interest plan for premium players, even though it is a total joke since you would have to practically live on AP in order to keep your monthly standing. So why start something like that?

This is getting really confusing

[lots0]

Yes I agree,

This is getting really confusing...

Because, this this entire idea makes no sense at all.

First - Why would AP risk everything for a few players?

Second - The so called "proof" shown at the other forum... does NOT prove anything.

Maybe this is nothing but a scam being played on AP by those self proclaimed "pros" that listed those hands at the other forum...

P>S> as far as AP hurting for money... MY understanding (as an Affiliate of AP's) is that AP's profits have gone thru the roof because the competition for US players has been drastically reduced since Oct 13 2006...

[The Watchdog]

The whole issue is just amusing...

Do people really buy that crap? come on.. I have worked for playtech, tribeca, and other proprietary software companies and the whole idea of a super account (like mentioned on 2+2) is just hilarious....

There is only 1 way of cheating in poker and is through collusion.. period...

A big operation such as AP or any other site will never risk their reputation by allowing such practice.

As a matter of fact, from the hundreds of poker sites operating in costa rica, I have only seen 2 sites which use house players playing on same tables to cheat customers... one of them is already out of business.

Never the less, you guys who know the industry are aware that no one will invest the time or efforts in doing such thing.

What I believe is that some serious highrollers lost some money to a donkey and now are pissed.

Well, anyways... too bad american players can't play at Titan ... best site ever

[pokeraddict]

Second - The so called "proof" shown at the other forum... does NOT prove anything.

It seems from a 2+2 thread most of the non believers do not use Poker Tracker and all of the Poker Tracker users are 100% believers. This leads me to believe the stats might need more explaining to help non PT users fully understand.

One cheat account has stats of 94/72 with overall aggression factors over 20 with river AF's that cannot be calculated because he never calls, he only folds or raises. He is winning 32BB/100 in limit and 311ptbb/100 in NL. So what does all this mean?

The first stat I show as 94 means that a player puts money in the pot preflop 94% of the time. It is safe to say that 5 of the other 6% are unraised big blinds so this means the player is flopping 99% of the time. Out of 100 hands he only flops once, maybe twice before the flop. In one 100 hand sample this player folded 3 times. Once a player held AA, another time a player held QQ and a 3rd time it had been 3 bet when it got to him. In the third hand no hands were shown so it cannot be determined what he or the other 2 players had.

The 72 refers to his preflop raise %. So not only is he flopping virtually every hand (unless another player has a monster) he is raising preflop 72% of the time. Since he seems to play an average of 4.5 players per hand he is raising roughly every time each orbit except once.

The 32bb/100 in limit refers to a win rate of 32 big bets per 100 hands. In the limits where these accusations have been made this would mean that every 100 hands this particular player is winning an astonishing $9600. The 311ptbb/100 is slightly different then limit. 1 ptbb is double the big blind in NL. This player is playing 10/20 NL. His win rate per 100 hands in NL is $12,440. A good player might win 5bb/100 and 10ptbb/100. Even 100 hands would be a big enough sample to know something was up. To put it in a more normal stake formula this would be like winning over $1200 in an hour of 1/2 NL and being able to do it consistently. With the posted PT's this would mean for you to mimic the same results in a 10 hour day you would have to win over $12,000 in 1/2 NL. That's right, over a $12,000 win in a day long $2 big blind NL game. If you use PT find 1 player with 50+ hands that has these stats or better. It's simple you can't, especially the infinite river AF. You probably can't find a player with win rates half that with over 50 hands and with 1000 hands you will certainly not.

Also this players W$atSD (won money at showdown) is over 90% and keep in mind none of these losses are with him calling a second best hand. All the losses are from players going all in before the river or from a handful of cheat open checks and op checks. Since he can see others cards why would he call a loser? He either has you beat or he doesn't.

How is this player flopping every hand, raising almost every hand preflop, winning every showdown he puts money in the pot for and taking the iggest winrate in history? There's only 1 answer. Any poker player knows a 94/72 player is a total maniac fish that is going to go bust very quickly.

Combine this with the massive chip dump last night of roughly $30,000 calling hands like an unimproved 34 on the river for $1700 while getting accused left and right for previous cheating and the fact AP is ignoring everybody demanding an immediate statement is really damning. Why hasn't AP locked these accounts yet? Why has AP ignored players since even before this went public? One of these players chip dumped an entire bankroll midweek last week. That's why this finally broke. Why would AP allow that?

If all of this does not convince you what will?

FWIW I have not been taken for anything. I simply posted about this because this is a very serious situation that needs to be addressed by AP and needs to be recognized by the entire industry. Either they have been hacked or they have been cheating. If they were hacked and have still done nothing, not even lock accounts then they have really screwed up. If they are in on it then they have ruined their business. There are many that believe Mark Seif is involved. I think that is far fetched but the more AP ignores this the more speculation that will come out. Mark Seif has been accused of this very thing in the past at AP even though that evidence did not have any facts unlike the mountain of evidence here.

Believe the facts or dismiss them as made up if you choose. The only way I can see how one could dismiss these allegations is if they believe all of facts are made up, not because multiple players can play like that and win even a little, much less an absolute fortune in one of the highest limit games online against some of the biggest names in online poker. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.

[pokeraddict]

The Watchdog,

Funny to see you here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/do...h=1&fromprof=1

Why are 10/11 of your posts at 2+2 Absolute Poker related? You've already been called out there by the internet gambling mod for shilling Absolute Poker and having a related account to 2 other Absolute Poker spammers, at least one of them is in upper management of Absolute Entertainment. This is what I mean about the shill/spam campaigns Absolute Poker has been on at 2+2.

[pokeraddict]

Mark Seif responds. IMO opinion he had nothing to do with it anyway. As he mentions he has lost a ton of cash there. He's right, he could very well be a victim too.

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/blog/bl...id=80&bcatid=4

i was just made aware of these serious allegations this morning while playing at the wpt event at the borgata, where i am presently. while i have not had a chance to investigate this matter, i can tell you and anyone else who believes or for whatever reason has stated that i am somehow involved in this matter, unequivocally, i do not now, nor have i ever, had the ability to see hole cards on any poker site i have ever played at including absolute poker.

i doubt my results would be what they are if i had the ability to see my opponents' hole cards. in fact, i am almost certainly the biggest all-time loser on the site and have been crushed in the big games for a long, very long time. if anything, i would very much like this matter thoroughly investigated so that we can all find out what has happened, and if appropriate, to take swift remedial action such as seizing funds and returning them to the players cheated, including myself, if in fact, ap's security protections have been compromised.

[EasyRhino]

I'm confused, why would the cheats be dumping chips?

[BBKPoker]

As a former pre-UGIEA high-stakes limit and no limit pro, I have to say the evidence is somewhat damning, but lets go by issues:

1.) Issue one, blatant chip-dumping in highstakes NL games. There have been 3-4 hand histories of several thousand dollar hands where on the river, player A bets everything aside from $1. Player B raises and Player A folds. This is just blatant chip-dumping and obvious fraud. There is no legitimate poker explanation, and for stakes this high, I really cannot believe this was an accidental misclick for thousands more than one time. Frankly, this kind of activity with this much money is enough of a red flag to me that I will almost certainly never play at Absolute again.

2.) The Pokertracker stats are pretty damning. The one caveat I really have here, is that the sample sizes I've seen posted on 2+2 and in other threads are only running 3-500 hands deep. I think that it is probably possible that a player could cherry pick the right hand histories to create what looks like an unreasonable set of stats, but it would be fairly unlikely. If players had this kind of sample size over something like 5,000 hands I think it would be inarguable that it is not legitimate poker. What is particularly alarming and Absolute will need to clear up is:

a.) river aggression stats I've seen are pretty much impossible. One player over 500 hands had an actual infinite river aggression factor. That means he literally raises or folds on every single river, and supports very strongly the claim that he is able to view an opponents hole cards. On the river he knows 100% whether he has the player beat or whether the player likely has so bad of a hand that they pretty much can't call a river raise.

b.) Some of the accounts I've watched have made extremely strange preflop actions that only make sense if they could see other cards. For example, a hand history where in a 150/300 6-handed short game, a player open calls with 10/10 in middle position. 10/10 is a no-brainer raise when you are opening a pot from any position in six-max. The Small blind coincidentally had pocket aces this hand which seems to me like he knows that if he flops a ten, he can smash the pocket aces and if he misses on the flop he will have no problem knowing where he is at in the hand and folding. Lots of equity here. Another example, a player open limps q/10 suited on the button when the small blind has pocket aces again. A huge part of short-handed preflop play is the folding equity you gain from raising a wider range of hands because the overall hand strength is much lower, and you are additionally forcing people behind you out making for larger pots where you are essentially in control of the hand by being in position. Limping on the button with almost anything doesn't really make sense unless you are specifically trying to trap the blinds and let them see a cheap flop when you have a big pair.

c.) the NL stats and hand histories I have show some ridiculous calls with hands such as ten high, jack high, etc to win very large pots in situations where no high stakes player could call regardless of the strength of their read. I could see calling with ace and king high in a few situations, but even when you have a particularly strong read, there is essentially no situation in which you can legitimately think your ten high is the best hand and call down a pot-sized bet.

With those three very glaring problems, I'd say I'm leaning about 85/15 towards absolute being rigged vs not rigged, and I'm pretty much the last online gambling is rigged theorist you could possibly find. I've dressed down a number of people for claiming casinos have rigged blackjack and the like on well-known and regulated software, but this looks like a legitimate problem. I think another explanation is simply that there are super-user accounts used for admin and security purposes by the company (to check for collusion, chip dumping, etc) and somehow players either hacked their way into obtaining one, or they are working with someone in absolute security who changed the security level setting to that of a security worker.

That being said, I have fairly intimate knowledge that at least Poker Stars is specifically not rigged.