Major Absolute Poker Issue

[Pinababy69]

Adanthar, it's not for my sake that I asked, lol. Like I said, I had no problems believing the story from day one. My suggestion was only made in hoping that it might sway anyone who was on the fence, that's all.

Personally, I think more than enough "proof" has been posted. But if this one thing is all that's needed to put the issue over the top (as far as this forum goes)...having Bryan look and verify the email headers at least, seemed the simplest way to get there.

[Adanthar]

My copy is second hand, but I have CrazyMarco's email (everyone with the file does, lol) so Bryan can contact him directly if that's what he'd like.

[Pinababy69]

Originally Posted by Adanthar

My copy is second hand, but I have CrazyMarco's email (everyone with the file does, lol) so Bryan can contact him directly if that's what he'd like.

Sounds like a plan. I'm gonna PM him, and see if he'll request an original of the email and if he has time to verify the headers. Thanks.

[pokeraddict]

I encourage this to be shared with Bryan as he can obviously be trusted with this type of info. Let's face it though, in a few days this will be all over the internet. All of the people who have their private info in these files (email addresses used to login to AP with, IP's and/or hole cards) will have all of their info exposed thanks to AP's blatant disregard of privacy on top of their other obvious problems.

As far as trying to convince the non believers I see it as pointless even though I've tried myself. Those who do not understand are those that do not want to understand, plain and simple. As mentoned before plenty of players have come forward to confirm the authenticity of the hh's that pertain to hands they participated in.

The bottom line is Absolute Poker lied, cheated and/or helped cover up cheating. If they were not directly involved they are almost certainly sitting on all these funds the cheats won which makes them cheats anyway. We're talking between $500,000 and $1,000,000 that players lost.

It's over AP, it's time to come clean and try to save your business.

[Pinababy69]

Your post pretty much sums it up pokeraddict. And you are probably also right that anyone who hasn't been convinced by now, most likely won't be. I did PM Bryan anyway, and ask him to take a look at it (and the updates on this thread), if he has time. Even just for myself, I'd like to see it followed through to the end. They're already rogued here (or not recommended), so I guess there's not much more he can do anyway.

Honestly, both you guys (especially pokeraddict) have my respect for following through so diligently on this, and not letting go. Not everyone cares enough to do that. I just hope that something good can come of it ie. if nothing else, a message to other sites of how not to run their business.

It's a difficult call as well if this would damage or help those who want online gaming regulated in the U.S. On one hand, the politicians could say "see, we told you, stealing from our U.S. citizens, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to do business here". On the other hand, it's a perfect example of why true regulation, licensing and some sort of accountability to an appropriate agency would have cut through all this bullshit.

[lots0]

Well I guess I am not going to be convinced.

I still don't see any proof, no evidence... Just a bunch of accusations from people that won't show any REAL evidence when asked for it (forum postings do NOT constitute proof).

Come on.... Make the evidence public. What are you guys afraid of??

How is anyone supposed to believe your accusations without any proof???

I guess some people are gonna believe the accusations because the accusers just keep repeating the accusations over and over... Never showing any proof. Let me repeat that... NEVER SHOWING ANY PROOF.

I don't know how many times in this thread I have asked to see the proof that keeps getting talked about... However, not one single piece of real evidence has yet been shown...

When asked for proof, I get more forum postings, telling me they believe, giving me reasons why they can't present the proof.... but never showing any...

It is not about understanding poker... It's about understanding fairness.

Talk about a lynch mob mentality.

[happygobrokey]

Originally Posted by lots0

Well I guess I am not going to be convinced.

I still don't see any proof, no evidence... Just a bunch of accusations from people that won't show any REAL evidence when asked for it (forum postings do NOT constitute proof).

Come on.... Make the evidence public. What are you guys afraid of??

How is anyone supposed to believe your accusations without any proof???

I guess some people are gonna believe the accusations because the accusers just keep repeating the accusations over and over... Never showing any proof. Let me repeat that... NEVER SHOWING ANY PROOF.

I don't know how many times in this thread I have asked to see the proof that keeps getting talked about... However, not one single piece of real evidence has yet been shown...

When asked for proof, I get more forum postings, telling me they believe, giving me reasons why they can't present the proof.... but never showing any...

It is not about understanding poker... It's about understanding fairness.

Talk about a lynch mob mentality.

make the evidence PUBLIC? PUBLISHING (see the resemblance between those words?) the hand histories on a PUBLIC forum is not making it public?

there is more than enough evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that cheating occurred. 90% of correct river decisions could be just ridiculous skill, but 99+% is beyond the skill of even the greatest demi-gods of the game.

what is proof? how would you be satisfied? does the cheater have to tell you in person that they cheated and explain precisely how? in a trial, evidence is taken to determine if there is proof BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that the crime took place and was committed by the accused. the accused is not forced to come forward with the methodology they used to commit the crime, or no one would ever be found guilty. the culprits won't incriminate themselves willingly.

seeing ~90% of flops, only folding when other players had pocket monsters. always successfully calling down bluffs with rags that beat the other players' rags. making a huge bet then folding to dump your chips, when even the lord of the donks knows you should be pot-committed.

that IS the evidence. not a definitive PROOF (which can only be demonstrated by the people responsible, who have a right not to be forced to incriminate themselves), but evidence showing BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that there WAS cheating, which equates to an effective PROOF.

just as with alleged casino rigging, you cannot PROVE 100% that it IS rigged, all you can do is give sufficient evidence showing it is INFINITELY UNLIKELY to NOT be rigged.

simple as.

[lots0]

make the evidence PUBLIC? PUBLISHING (see the resemblance between those words?) the hand histories on a PUBLIC forum is not making it public?

What is the source of those hand histories? Why can't it be published? (you know made public). I am expected to believe these forum posts without question? Without evidence?

there is more than enough evidence...

Really where is it, I haven't seen it. Care to post some links? Show an email header? Show an Email or even just something a little more than, "jeez look what I can post in an open forum"...

in a trial, evidence is taken to determine if there is proof BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that the crime took place and was committed by the accused.

No kidding? Well where is your evidence? All I am asking is for you or one of your buddies to just show me the evidence and stop telling me all about it.

that IS the evidence.

Really, then why can't you show it to me and not just tell me about it? I want to see where the information comes from... is that too much to ask? Well I guess so.

just as with alleged casino rigging, you cannot PROVE 100% that it IS rigged...

You can prove an online casino is rigged. So your argument is moot.

Again all I am asking for is to see the evidence for myself and NOT just have someone I don't know keep telling me that the evidence is there...

Why is that so hard to do?

[pokeraddict]

So posting every hand involving the cheats from a tourney he won calling an u/i ten high on the river and playing flawless the whokle way through doesn't convince? Did you even look at the hands? The VPIP chart? Anything?

You're right you're never going to be convinced. I think you're the only one too. Even the very few non believers at 2+2 are 100% convinced now. Even Jeremy at PAW who deleted the thread on his forum at AP's request and has who knows how many subs now has changed his mind.

Have you noticed that 2 days later AP has not even come out denying the email was sent? How about claiming the hh's were forged? NO! In other words AP is so nailed they can't even think of a lie to cover their tracks.

If you are not convinced by now obviously you will never even if AP ever admits it.

[lots0]

So posting every hand involving the cheats from a tourney he won calling an u/i ten high on the river and playing flawless the whokle way through doesn't convince? Did you even look at the hands? The VPIP chart? Anything?

Well some evidence would be good. How about these guys posting the SOURCE of their information instead of just telling everyone about it and posting their interpretation of what happened?

If you are not convinced by now obviously you will never even if AP ever admits it.

Oh give me a break.

All I ask for is some real evidence and these are the types of responses I get.

Ya the lynch mob is real convinced the guy they are hanging is guilty... Makes me feel real confident in the judgment of the mob. I guess that is why lynching is still illegal...