Major Absolute Poker Issue

[lnspin]

My thoughts on this ,

the chip dumping is 100% true , i have watched it myself and it is the only explination .

As for seeing the hole cards , i do not beleive ap has been hacked and that the cheaters can see everyones hole cards , i think a few of the cheaters , somehow got a trojan on some high limit players computers , and are able to see there hole cards , and are effectively cleaning them out .

That letter from Danielle was shocking , as she stated that n instances of chip dumping were found . Well where are you looking , when a player bets 9999 and gets raised to 10,000 and folds instead of calling a $1 , there is no explination for that , and it has happened mutiple times .

[Adanthar]

Originally Posted by lnspin

As for seeing the hole cards , i do not beleive ap has been hacked and that the cheaters can see everyones hole cards , i think a few of the cheaters , somehow got a trojan on some high limit players computers , and are able to see there hole cards , and are effectively cleaning them out .

For a variety of reasons already stated on 2+2, that cannot be the case. The most important one of these is that the cheating also took place in tournaments, where trojans planted on only certain players would not be nearly as effective. A 'raise 21/fold exactly the 5 times that random people have big pairs' record cannot be explained by a virus on only 'some' computers.

[chuchu59]

Originally Posted by lots0

Ya asking for proof, is a bad way to solve a problem like this, lets stick with innuendo and false accusations.


First is there no other possible explanation of this players actions, like maybe he/she was just stupid, drunk or drugged up or maybe this person got so freaked out by being accused of cheating that they went on tilt to the max.

Next, So your sure no one at AP was investigating? They just ignored everything huh... wells thats crappy of them, but your really sure they did nothing, absolutely nothing...

Maybe the folks at AP wanted to know what was going on before they took any action or maybe they looked at it and saw nothing or maybe they looked and saw something but ignored it... But they took action of some kind...

You don't have any idea of what Absolute Poker did or did not do, but your willing to damn them one way or the other aren't you...

Wheres the PROOF?

Lotso,

If there needs to be proof that conforms to your level, nobody would be convicted of any crimes. I have always believed that anyone is innocent unless proven guilty but your standards really do take the cake. Assuming stupidity, drunkenness or just freaked out is carrying proof to extremes especially when these occurences have been numerous and sustained over a steady period of time. I am no poker expert but from what i have read from the 2+2 forum and the posts from pokeraddict and BBPoker it is obvious that something is amiss and that chip dumping actually occured at least. Of course, unless the guy actually admits it, you can always argue that this is not the case but surely the evidence is damning even to a novice like me.

[Zoozie]

Everyone that does not believe foul play is the case here, please write how long you have played poker with your PT BB/100 and limit, total number of hands

If you do this and still want to troll, then come up with some serious arguments how it is possible to archive those stats. Run some statistics and find the odds for a maniac going on such a lucky streak besides making the correct river decision 179 times in a row. Also factor in they sometimes lost small pots on purpose to disguise the cheat. (though I would have done a lot more of that!) Or is it a hoax setup somehow with false PT data?

I do not find a Trojan likely at all since it was happening to many players in cash-games not to mention the MMT's.

The only resolution is that AP hire a third party and give them full access to the AP hand database. The accusations are serious enough for AP to go this far.

[pokeraddict]

The story broke one week ago today and to this point so I figure it is a good time for a summary:

1. A massive amount of evidence has been compiled against the cheats. Mods at 2+2 have compiled a database in Poker Tracker, a popular software which tracks your results as well as the other players you play against and in the case of many sites games you observe. These stats prove to virtually everybody in the online poker community that the accused players were cheating by being able to see the hole cards of the other players.

2. AP reacted very slowly in locking the cheat accounts, even allowing one to chip dump several days after this broke.

3. AP has still not made a public comment. An affiliate manager at Chipleader has but claimed they had not found any odd play as of yet. Considering just the number of chip dump hands posted this seems impossible. IMO it is safe to say that this statement was not made by management, especially since it was signed by the Chipleader.com employee. To this point nobody has disputed that and the response has been widely ignored since the most obvious chip dumping was not acknowledged.

4. AP has asked a poker affiliate forum to not allow discussion of this and the thread was removed from their forum by the owner (shame on them).

5. Support sends out form emails to players asking questions about this situation. Even players that lost tens of thousands to the cheats cannot get any info out of AP.

6. AP's security department has told a player that were taken "We are unable to find any hands involving you and x player". AP had to be emailed hand #'s/histories from the player which hardly gives confidence in the investigation or the anti collusion/cheating procedures.

7. AP ignored initial emails from players tipping them off to the cheating and first chip dumping. Their lack of response leads to this exposure.

8. The amount stolen by the cheats range from $400,000-$600,000.

9. The community seems split on whether AP is involved in the cheating ring. Some feel the site was hacked, others feel an AP insider is in on it while others feel AP management has known about this all along.

10. The consensus has become that the cheating started on the day of the last major upgrade about a month ago.

Other interesting things that have come out of this that don't help AP's cause.

1. The razz game awards a pot to the wrong person. After repeated emails AP still claims the pot was awarded to the correct person when obviously it was not. The email exchange was humorous as multiple people at AP (and obviously the software developer) are unable to grasp the rules of the game.

2. Mark Seif had been accused of this same thing in the past (with no real evidence). Mark Seif comes out denying any involvement and publicly asks AP to investigate and resolve this situation. Most in the community do not feel Mark Seif is involved. In fact, Mark claims in his statement that he is likely the biggest loser in AP history. Many players agree with his admission of losses.

3. Several former props have come out claiming AP did this same type of cheating to them about 2 years ago. I once propped for them but it seems the time frame AP has been accused of this was after I left the program. I worked for AP for about 2 years as a prop and left on great terms. In fact I'm probably still listed officially as a prop. IMO AP did not start the downward spiral until the UIGEA passed which was long after my last hand. AFAIK the props making this accusation have never brought up any proof, at least not up to the magnitude of the current accusations.

I'm sure I've missed some good points but this is a good halftime summary. It's time for Absolute Poker to step up to the plate and enlighten us as to what they have found. Obviously they are in an awful situation. Either they have been caught cheating or they have allowed a backdoor that allowed cheating to take place on their site, even after being presented with the proof it was going on.

[satchmo]

Ohh comercial break, now let's go and the popcorn stand.

Whoa alot of reading in all the forums.

Well as far as proof, i would say somethig dosent add up.
Well im backing up again waiting for some more reading on this thing.


Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero.

[Casinomeister]

I received an email response from AP overnight. I don't think they'll mind me posting it here:

We have done an extensive research into the claims that have been brought to our attention. While we are continuing to do a thorough and exhaustive investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing.

When you are logged in and playing your game client only receives data regarding your hole cards. As a result, it is impossible for a player to have information regarding any other player's hole cards. There are no "superuser" accounts that enable players to see other players' hole cards.

Despite our confidence in the security of our systems, we researched hands involving accounts that were mentioned in the online forum posts over the weekend and did not find any incidence of cheating by the accounts in question. Results mentioned in the forums were over a small sample of hands, and we have researched these hands as well as numerous other hands involving these players and have found that the pattern of play of the players did not lend credibility to the claim that the players knew the cards of other players at the table. Certainly there were hands that were played poorly, from a poker strategy perspective, and where these players received a fortunate result. However, a longer term review has shown that similar playing strategies have not resulted in the same results as these players achieved in the small sample of hands mentioned in the online discussion.

Furthermore, the play of the players in question did not substantiate claims that they were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

We take these matters very seriously, and stand by the results of our random number generator and game client security. Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.

[chuchu59]

AP's response? It's too generalised and hardly convincing. We have discussed in detail several instances of chip dumping in this thread and since its all in the open already AP should explain to us why they think they are not regarded as such. I, for one, wouldnt mind to treat these as case studies with details scrutinised as closely as possible.

[I Like Pie]

lol @

Furthermore, the play of the players in question did not substantiate claims that they were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

The other night after this story came out, DOUBLEDRAG sat down and spewed thousands of dollars. He obviously knew that he got caught cheating and thought this was a good way to cover it up. I saw on hand where he called an all-in on the turn with K high and no draws, and another was with 4 high I believe. All the hand histories from that session are in one of the 2+2 threads.
AP is a joke.

[lots0]

He obviously knew that he got caught cheating and thought this was a good way to cover it up.

So besides being a super user card cheat he/she is an idiot as well...
Ya that makes a lot of sense...

You don't like AP.... Don't play there.

A massive amount of evidence has been compiled against the cheats.

Have you asked a qualified independent investigator to look at your evidence? I know you all believed AP was guilty before you even began to gather any evidence, so it would only fair to ask an independent 3rd party to take a look before passing judgment (oops too late for that, you've already made yourselves judge and jury and now your trying hard to be the executioner... ) Mob justice is always so.... fair and open minded...(sarcasm)