Major Absolute Poker Issue

[jetset]

For the record (in this thread) here's the Absolute response to which Lots0 refers, dated today and from the other thread on this topic (I agree - two threads on the same topic can be distracting, but it happens on occasion!)

QUOTE:

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The player’s and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other player’s hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

UNQUOTE

Seems to me that this is the same response which the Poker News article has included in its report for balance...and there's no denying that this is a topic that is being widely debated here and on other fora.

[Casinomeister]

As noted, more than one thread is confusing - thus they are merged

and so it goes...

[pokeraddict]

As noted, more than one thread is confusing - thus they are merged

and so it goes...

Sorry, I posted it to let others know since this is such a slow forum. I see now it was a bad idea. It is however important for all to see what is going on. I could have done that in a better way.

I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP.

I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google. Poker Tracker is a software that tracks hands from hand histories you receive from hands you have played or watched. The following sites knowingly allow Poker Tracker to be used on their site. It is far from a cheating software.

Absolute Poker, Party Poker, Poker Stars, Ultimate Bet, Full Tilt Poker, Pacific Poker, CryptoLogic Network, iPoker Network, Prima Network, Ladbrokes, Everest Poker, B2B Network, Ongame, World Poker Exchange, Bodog and Betfair. These sites all have designed hand histories to be compatible with many tracking programs. I don't like it either but it is far from cheating. Poker Tracker alsio helps protect players against cheats and when situations like this come up cheating can be obvious and cheaters can be punished. Without Poker Tracker this cheating could have gone on forever.

Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year (and w/o the UIGEA the biggest story in 5 years) to the community. I'm confused as to why. You even go so far as go to other Absolute threads and call out a poster that had his account locked and even came back to say all was resolved. Why?

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out.

This is obviously far from a rumor.

There were some on this board that acted like AP was ignoring these accusations. Most of us knew that was not true.

Oh? Why was a cheating account chip dumping 4 days after this story broke? Why did AP ignore emails both before and after the story broke? How can AP say nothing odd has been seen when many players have emailed hh's from an obvious chip dumping session?

Like I said if you choose to decide the screenshots and hand histories are fake that is your choice. I've posted several times this year why IMO Absolute Poker is a shady poker room. I guess this is why this was not surprising to me at all and I have had little faith about their involvement and whether they were involved or if they will even do anything about it in the end.

[pokeraddict]

Several other cheating accounts have been exposed in the last 12 hours. This is the new 2+2 thread. It keeps getting deeper and deeper for AP.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...page=0&fpart=1

[lots0]

OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.

As one of the posters at 2+2 said

It is pretty obvious that if these guys are colluding they are very bad at it and arent really hiding it at all.

Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...

Pokeraddict said;

Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year.

First I am not 'resentful', I am flabbergasted that such a bullshit story has gotten such coverage.

2nd - No way this is the biggest story in online poker... In order for this to be the biggest story, it first has to be true... And this is so obviously not true.

pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.

[lots0]

I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google.

I call it 'Poker Grabber', some call it 'Hand Grabber' or 'History Grabber'. Whatever you call it, they are programs that grab (steal?) other peoples hand histories so you can use your computers power and programs like 'Poker Tracker' to analyze the way people play and then track them around the different poker rooms and then relieve them of their money.

You can't do this kinda crap in a 'real' land based poker room, so you should not be able to do it online... But that is just my opinion and I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion about the ethics of 'Poker Grabber' and 'Poker Tracker' like computer programs.

[pygmyhipo]

Side Note: I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP. This is something that I believe needs to end immediately, for the benefit of ALL online players.

PokerTracker is not a "cheating program". The 2+2 posters who provided data are sharing the hand histories that were saved to the hard disk by the Absolute Poker client itself. The PokerTracker program simply loads these files and displays statistics on the hands.

Without PokerTracker the players would have very little chance of detecting cases of cheating. Do you want to rely 100% on the so-called "Security department" of a poker site that has consistently proven itself inept at putting its customers' interests first? I don't.

-pyg

[lots0]

@ pygmyhipo
I guess you did not read the part about NOT hijacking this thread with a discussion about the ethics of these types of programs.

P.S. It's real simple, if you don't trust them don't play there... You don't need a computer program for that.

[BBKPoker]

First: The Watchdog is a pretty obvious shrill. His posts on 2+2 involve things like "I'll have my friend look into your account problem".

Second: Here's an example of a hand from PotRipper where he made it very deep into a $1,000 buyin online NL tournament:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI$428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]


So he calls for his stack with 10 high, no draws on the turn? I'm sorry, this is frankly unbelievable for a high stakes winning limit and no limit player with very strong win stats.

Another super-suspicious hand to me involving another questionable account. This time, GrayCat:



STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI$4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

So, GrayCat caps the betting preflop, putting in the fourth bet, only to check-fold on an extremely harmless looking flop of 2/2/5?

What hand could he possibly have capped with that he can the so conveniently get away from when his opponent flops a 5 with his pocket fives for his monster hand of 5s full of deuces?

[ZFitz]

OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.

I cant believe your post and Ive registered just to ask you are you trolling or do you just not understand the stats that have been posted? You are asking for "just one small piece of proof" presumably after you have read the thread on 2+2 where there is completely incontrovertible evidence of cheating. The only way you don't see this is if you dont understand how to read the stats.


Then there is the supporting evidence, (although uneccessary as the stats alone are more than sufficient proof of cheating), of never calling on the river, always either raising or folding; winning more than anyone else playing 90%+ of hands, a percentage you would likely not find even on a play money table. How can you honestly believe that someone can turn a massive profit playing some of the biggest names in online poker at very high stakes playing this (beyond retarded donkey) style without having inside info, so I'll ask again do you not understand pokertracker stats?

The hand BBKPoker is the one that I found most amazing of all - calling all in with 10 high on the turn when down to the last two of a mtt.

As one of the posters at 2+2 said
Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...

As every other poster on 2+2 says
They are cheating......

pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.

I'll take it you just don't understand the stats at this stage because you are actually making yourself look very stupid. This is not rumor and innuendo, the statistics have been posted for all to see. Some of the stuff I have seen posted I would imagine would more improbably winning the lottery - a good example being winning "37 buyins (assuming a buyin = 100BB) in 440 hands playing 90/70".