T&Cs should be translated

[Tirilej]

[split from Pinnacle/Galewind T's & C's per the OP's request]

If a casino can offer their services to all different countries, shouldn't they be forced to make sure that everyone of their players could understand their T&C's? Shouldn't the rules be translated to all languages?

Sometimes every single thing in a casino is translated to my language (Swedish) but never the T&C's.
You can never use google-translation and even if you try to use a dictionary the meaning of the rule can be gone.

That was the question for you Chris and any other Casinorep that wants to answer it, but i feel I have to add a little more also when I have your attention

Most people that are visiting this forum has English as their language since birth. Many are really helpful towards those who are speaking bad english, but not all, and not always.
I can assure you that there are many many people who get cought in the net of rules just because they hadn't even a chance to understand them. We have our proud to, and when we start playing, we have so many other things to learn that the rules are the last thing we care about.

I have told my funny example before. I actually sent an email to a casino asking what they ment with the word currency
Then you maybe can imagine what level most of us are on when we start playing.

You might can call us irresponsible, but I can assure you that we pay for it too.
When we finally understand that it was our own fault that we didn't get paid we don't even come here to ask for help. We are too ashamed.
I was in that position too when I started. I mailed Max here, but realized after his answer that I would never be able to get any help since it was my own fault for not understanding the rules in the first place.
It shouldn't be that way. We should at least be able to get the same chance as everyone else to understand the T&C's.

 

[Nifty29]

I asked Cylon if it was okey that I added another question that's important to me and probably every gambler in the world that isn't a native English speaker. It was okey so here it comes...

If a casino can offer their services to all different countries, shouldn't they be forced to make sure that everyone of their players could understand their T&C's? Shouldn't the rules be translated to all languages?

Sometimes every single thing in a casino is translated to my language (Swedish) but never the T&C's.
You can never use google-translation and even if you try to use a dictionary the meaning of the rule can be gone.

That was the question for you Chris and any other Casinorep that wants to answer it, but i feel I have to add a little more also when I have your attention

Most people that are visiting this forum has English as their language since birth. Many are really helpful towards those who are speaking bad english, but not all, and not always.
I can assure you that there are many many people who get cought in the net of rules just because they hadn't even a chance to understand them. We have our proud to, and when we start playing, we have so many other things to learn that the rules are the last thing we care about.

I have told my funny example before. I actually sent an email to a casino asking what they ment with the word currency
Then you maybe can imagine what level most of us are on when we start playing.

You might can call us irresponsible, but I can assure you that we pay for it too.
When we finally understand that it was our own fault that we didn't get paid we don't even come here to ask for help. We are too ashamed.
I was in that position too when I started. I mailed Max here, but realized after his answer that I would never be able to get any help since it was my own fault for not understanding the rules in the first place.
It shouldn't be that way. We should at least be able to get the same chance as everyone else to understand the T&C's.

It's a fair question, and you didn't need another member's "permission" to post it.

I'm not sure it would be feasible in every language, but perhaps a short list of the top 5 languages or at least one from each region.

 

[Tirilej]

Thread title changed: less poetry, more to the point.

That was fair ofcourse, but since I now feel that my post suddenly will be left out totally then maybe I can ask you to move it to it's own thread? Is that possible?

To me that question is more important than the rest of them and I want the whole industri to read about it

 

[maxd]

NP, done.

 

[chayton]

I think this is a really good point. Being a native english speaker I never realized that most casino T&Cs are not already in other languages. And after all, it's one of the most important things about playing at a casino. I know that some casino websites I've been to have different language choices - like NordicBet has a couple options, although theirs is mostly for Scandinavian countries unless I don't know my flags. Which is possible. 32Red has all sorts of choices, and I think they offer chat in languages other than English too, but it's very late and I may be already dreaming.

The problem would be that every time a casino offered a bonus that had different terms they'd have to hire translators - to make up for it they'd drop my RTP from 50 to 20.

 

[conker]

The problem would be that every time a casino offered a bonus that had different terms they'd have to hire translators - to make up for it they'd drop my RTP from 50 to 20.

Haha, that's the bottom line, we don't want the RTP's going down because of the extra overheads.

 

[Tirilej]

I think this is a really good point. Being a native english speaker I never realized that most casino T&Cs are not already in other languages. And after all, it's one of the most important things about playing at a casino. I know that some casino websites I've been to have different language choices - like NordicBet has a couple options, although theirs is mostly for Scandinavian countries unless I don't know my flags. Which is possible. 32Red has all sorts of choices, and I think they offer chat in languages other than English too, but it's very late and I may be already dreaming.

The problem would be that every time a casino offered a bonus that had different terms they'd have to hire translators - to make up for it they'd drop my RTP from 50 to 20.

I have given that a thought, since casinos can't hire people for every language every time there is a new bonus
But there are T&C's that's for everything regarding the play in the casino and there is rules for each bonus.
I can exept that the rules for each bonus is in English but maybe they should be more easy to understand. Like Rivals, you can't do it wrong there, or at least it's easier to make someone translate each bonus for you.
RTG also have an easy way to read each bonusrule.

But the head-T&C for each casino I want to be in my language, and they are not changed each week.

 

[Nifty29]

I think this is a really good point. Being a native english speaker I never realized that most casino T&Cs are not already in other languages. And after all, it's one of the most important things about playing at a casino. I know that some casino websites I've been to have different language choices - like NordicBet has a couple options, although theirs is mostly for Scandinavian countries unless I don't know my flags. Which is possible. 32Red has all sorts of choices, and I think they offer chat in languages other than English too, but it's very late and I may be already dreaming.

The problem would be that every time a casino offered a bonus that had different terms they'd have to hire translators - to make up for it they'd drop my RTP from 50 to 20.

Actually, cost is a real issue, especially considering the constant updates and individual terms for each promotion. Might well be prohibitive.

 

[Tirilej]

Actually, cost is a real issue, especially considering the constant updates and individual terms for each promotion. Might well be prohibitive.

True! You wouldn't want to pay anything for me to be able to understand anything, would you?

Sorry! Bad sarcasm again! You see from my above post what rules I want translated to all languages.

 

[IanO]

Hey all...

I was actually chatting about this with Tirilej via PM, so may as well share here what I told her there...,

As the industry has grown terms and conditions have (sadly) had to become more and more complicated and in-depth in order to keep the fraudsters and abusers in check. Making sure you have the wording and terms air-tight with no mistakes is a VERY hard thing to do. This is the reason so many casinos include a 'spirit of the bonus' type clause.... to use as a fall back in case they dont account for a specific situation in the terms.

To then add 'translate that into 20 languages' ??!! yikes! Plus these things always need to be double checked... so thats two new members of staff for every language you support.... Then what happens if there is a complaint? If you dont keep native language speakers for every version of your terms on staff, then they will only deal with the english terms... rendering the one you are looking at pretty useless in the event of a dispute.

(take a look at sites that have multiple language T's and C';s now... you'll often find the clause ''In the event of a dispute , the english language version of the rules prevails'' .. meaning at best they're a guidline anyway, not gospel)

IMO.... in many cases having multiple versions of your terms in several laungauages would not solve a problem, it would create new ones instead.


One final thought... I hope the managers of any rogue casinos dont see your post and realise that having all their terms only in native swahili is a great way to make things harder for their players

 

[Tirilej]

Thanks Ian! I really appreciate to get to see the other side of it, and why it might not is as easy as I would like it to be

You did give me a great example in the end there. Please translate all T&C's for every casino to Swahili. Then you might get some more understanding of how we feel

I don't want it to cost more since I know it's the players that would have to pay, but still it's not fair.
I can't get away from that thought. I have a way of always wanting to fight for the weak side, and the more I read when it comes to all of the bonusdiscussions that's around our board for the moment, the more I feel that something needs to be done.
From the softwareproviders, or operators, I don't know, but it has to be a way to make it easier.

If I can't get the rules written in a way that I can understand them, then they have to offer me a way of playing without the risk of being cought in that net of rules

 

[Mojack]

In my opinion if a casino wants to do business in a country then the casino should offer a version of their T&C in the predominant language spoken by the citizens of that country. The casino wants your money, communicating with you should be an acceptable cost of business, imo.

 

[skiny]

In my opinion if a casino wants to do business in a country then the casino should offer a version of their T&C in the predominant language spoken by the citizens of that country. The casino wants your money, communicating with you should be an acceptable cost of business, imo.

I was about to type the same thing. Personally I think it's irresponsible for an international company to limit the languages it is able to communicate in to the few most common. I've experienced the opposite problem on occasion, installing software from an entirely English website and then contacting a live support rep who seems more concerned with teaching me a new language than dealing with a simple deposit issue. I've had one support rep leave and come back 4 times only to be retold each time "I only speak English." Actually the 3rd time my response was "Is there someone there I can talk to with more than a 3 minute memory?" And the 4th time I greeted her with "Guten tag!" I have no idea what language she was speaking but I'm pretty sure it wasn't German.

As for T&Cs, it may be expensive to translate these into several languages but that's really just too bad isn't it? You don't have to hire permanent staff to translate documents. My suggestion would be to stop changing them more often than I change my socks. If you produce a clear, simple, concise set of rules for all players to follow you have no real need to change them. Write a set of terms and conditions that protects the casino and is fair to the players and leave them alone. Most reputable online casinos have been around for several years. You'd think they'd have got it right by now. If not, maybe you should find someone else to write them. (I'm free most evenings.)

I just don't have much sympathy when a casino tells me something as important as translating their terms and conditions so everyone can understand them is too expensive. Maybe if more of us took money out more often I'd be more sympathetic.

 

[Seventh777]

Good points hunny and one aspect that definitely needs attention by TPTB .

 

[Tirilej]

Good points hunny and one aspect that definitely needs attention by TPTB .

I did understand the word hunny, but TPTB is totally new to me?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

 

[skiny]

I did understand the word hunny, but TPTB is totally new to me?

"hunny" is an intentional misspelling of the word "honey" which people call other people if they think they're sweet... Or made by bees.

 

[Tirilej]

I'm not always so sweet, like now

An example that has nothing to do with the T&C's but actually made me close my account at the casino because it was just too much.
I got a promotionmail from Casino LaVida today.
The headline was translated to Swedish by google-translation. Not understandable even in Swedish
The mail my friends, was in Spanish Parla espanol? Si si no
If that is the money they spent when they are sending me promotions, then I should probably not expect that they will make anything understandable for me...obviously

 

[darkfire]

This might not be helpful in any way, but I know that the countries who are going the certification route all enforce having the T&Cs translated into their language. So most the big casinos who are going into those markets are having to to do that anyway...

And in the cases as she says in the OP "sometimes the whole casino is translated EXCEPT the T&Cs", I don't see how they can justify that... I agree that if they want to provide their product to a certain market, they need to be able to provide the product in the language of that market. And that includes T&Cs AND Live Support staff.

 

[dazlazz]

Most of the bigger casino and poker sites will now list which languages they provide support in - there is no excuse for translatiion costs as they can quite simply use the support staff to do the translations - sure if you are doing a promotion or changing the t + c s, it might take a little bit of time - so managers should maybe plan a little bit in advance if making changes, adding new promotions etc. If you have a Polish affiliate country manager for example, then use him or her to do the translations.

Very pure excuses from Casino / Poker Managers - 'spirit of promotion' - If you are going to provide support in various languages, then do the full job, not half measures!!!

 

[Tirilej]

When I started this thread I thought that I would get a lot of support, especially from those that wasn't from UK, USA or Australia. Surprisingly the support came from them so thanks for that

I understand now that what I was asking for isn't as easy as I thought, and like everything else there is always two sides of the coins.
I will continue to hope that most casinos will translate their T&C's in the future, and if I can I will take my chances and remind them when I have the opportunity to do so.
For now, I let it rest for a while

 

[Jasminebed]

I can't see it being practical for casinos to translate T&C's into every languarge, or even the official ones for the countries they accept. There are perhaps as many as 6,000 different spoken languages.

But how about they offer translations upon request? That way they only have costs trickle in a bit at a time, and only for players that require it. And if you request such translation and they are unable to accomodate you, don't play there?

Some smaller casinos may never get a player that requires translation to Chichewa for example, although they would accept such a player. If the player doesn't feel comfortable enough in the English language to play there, if the casino cannot accommodate them, they need to look elsewhere IMO.

If a casino does translate and accept a player, I don't think it's reasonable to have to offer live support. By email, and perhaps even with a longer time frame should be acceptable.

 

[TheLastCylon]

I've been meaning to contribute to this thread.

Tirilej, I'm glad to see that you received some significant support for this. T&C's are crappy to begin with, and making them inaccessible just makes them crappier.

I don't buy the cost argument. I have a friend who does translation work and a document the size of the standard T&C's for a casino would cost no more than $2000 per language. And considering that most of the casinos that bother to date their T&C's only update them once every year, or more, the cost aspect is minimized over time.

It's even more minimal when you consider that when T&C's are altered, it's usually one, small part of the grander document, meaning that continuing costs would be measured in the hundreds of dollars per year.

In this regard, 32Red appears to be the best casino. Their casino is available in many languages in which they do not provide their T&C's, but they still provide T&C's in Italian, German, French, and Japanese. That's pretty good.

I'm of the mind that most casinos are not translating their T&C's simply because they don't care. Perhaps they don't have any coverage in those countries. But since they don't provide their website in that language, I don't know how they expect to change that.

 

[Tirilej]

I want the T&C's to be translated to more languages no doubt about that. But what I trually would wish for was that the casinos forced the softwareprovider to make it easier for everyone.
If the casinos have better ways to change the settings for bonuses a lot of things would be won already.
I can't go into a trap that doesn't exist and the need for translation would not be as necessary as I feel it is now.

But when it comes to translated T&C's I remembered that Roxy Palace not too long ago had a special promotion for CM's players from Sweden. I took a look at that now, and what did I find? The website was all in swedish, the promotions too and the most important thing, their T&C's
It seems a lot of casinos are aware of the need and for them.

It maybe is easier to see the problems with translations than to actually do something about it, but that's not an acceptable excuse, at least not in my eyes.

 

[skiny]

I don't think the T&Cs need to be translated into every possible language but I do think that if you're going to accept clients from a particular country you should at least provide them in the most common or predominant languages.

It's the cost of doing business internationally.

 

[jullz]

Terms Response

[split from Pinnacle/Galewind T's & C's per the OP's request]

If a casino can offer their services to all different countries, shouldn't they be forced to make sure that everyone of their players could understand their T&C's? Shouldn't the rules be translated to all languages?

hello , i find your question rather interesting coming from a user perspective , there are many factors in why operators only choose to either not translate at all or to only do a few languages here are some of our reasons but firstly some context :

as a conversion marketer , I co-ordinate approx 90% of our sites translations,
For T&C's we for a little while had adopted the (translate into every language approach) however in English T&c's it clearly states that no matter what language the T&c's are translated into if there is a conflict the English rules will prevail,

so essentially no matter how you look at it the English rules will always reign over the translated ones

additionally when you look at reports of how many visits you have received to the T&c's page VS the cost of translation it simply is not worth it , taking into consideration the rule above ,

but I personally in my role strive to translate a whole site into all languages including the T&C's and we usually do at least for all major languages and all emerging markets such as yours we have our rules in Suomi/Norsk/Swedish/danish

but for language such as Turkish those Terms stay in English

it does provide a better experience to the user to be able to read the rules in his/her own language even if there are so few ,

I hope this has helped

all the best

jullz

 

[GrandMaster]

as a conversion marketer , I co-ordinate approx 90% of our sites translations,
For T&C's we for a little while had adopted the (translate into every language approach) however in English T&c's it clearly states that no matter what language the T&c's are translated into if there is a conflict the English rules will prevail,

You would need to state this in the translated T&Cs and you might as well not bother with the translation since the players would still have to read the English T&Cs. You could get into some interesting legal dispute with players who claim not to understand sufficiently well. Why don't you make, for example, the German T&Cs the official T&Cs for players in German speaking countries?

 

[jullz]

response!

You would need to state this in the translated T&Cs and you might as well not bother with the translation since the players would still have to read the English T&Cs. You could get into some interesting legal dispute with players who claim not to understand sufficiently well. Why don't you make, for example, the German T&Cs the official T&Cs for players in German speaking countries?

Sorry but i might have not been clear enough , in our translated Terms we do in fact mention this clause ,

It is important to remember that a online casino is constantly trying to protect it self from unethical or Aka Bonus abusers, In the case where there might be a clause that has not been correctly translated into German , the casino is still able to protect it self with the clause "English rules prevail in case of conflict"

but we definitely do put that clause in the relevant language , sorry if i was not clear enough

regards

jullz

 

[herlisfood]

I do believe that the terms and conditions should be translated in every language that the casino is accepting from but since they don't do that , you better make sure you understand the terms and conditions before playing at that casino. its better to be sure than be sorry later.