Casinos and Responsible Gambling

[LinkinFart]

Be a player: If you make a deposit and wager on any game in their lineup, you are now certainly a player. Check. Nothing misleading.

Be a winner: Have you, or do you know anyone that made a deposit and lost every single wager they ever made? I haven't, but it could exist. If it does exist, it's quite rare. So that being said, we all win some wagers, lose other wagers. It's usually a slow drain south, but in the meantime, RTP suggests that at least SOME of your wagers are being returned to play through again, if you choose. So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER. That's a win, plain and simple. Not the win you wanted, but did the statement "Be a winner" guarantee you a win above your wager, or a cumulative win above your deposit? No, of course it didn't. If you supply YOUR definition of winner, or the definition you just want to create, then you can make this slogan, or any slogan for that matter, misleading. You can take any slogan ever invented, show it to 100 people, and probably always find at least one person who could create something offensive or misleading about it. IMO, that doesn't mean it should be outlawed. Over my lifetime, I have certainly grown tired of people telling me what I should see, hear or do, or what I shouldn't see, hear or do.

- Keith

Sorry Da_Gambla but You`re adding things up that arent there, please dont think of this as flaming just debating.

As for "Be a player" statement, there`s nothing wrong with it. Pay, play, therefore you`re a player. No debate needed over that.


"Be a winner". This is the problem. Dr.Pepper example is poor one, because it doesnt involve possibility of losing money on grand scale and it doesnt include addiction, at least not in the same form as gambling addiction. Also, You cant drink 1000 Dr.Peppers but You can play 1000 bets of various sizes.

But even if you somehow could drink 1000 Peppers You are getting what you paid for, not less or more. So in the long run, however this may sound stupid, If one pays X amount of money for 1000 Dr.Peppers he would always get the same amount in return.

With gambling on the other hand nothing is certain, thats why its called gambling. You could put 1000 bets of various sizes and theoretically still get one big fat zero in return. Most likely in 1000 bets placed there will be some bets where return will be greater than investment, but this is also theoretical return.

"So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER." This is where You add up things that arent there. Saying that someone is a winner because he won $0.50 on $1.00 bet is nothing but a marketing spin and is not a true statement. In every standard form of comprehension getting smaller return than your investment IS called loss not a win. However someone may spin this numbers dont lie for a second, if you`re getting same amount back its called breaking even, if you get greater amont back its called winning and if you`re getting lesser amount back it cant be called winning again, only losing.

I`m sorry if I didnt make it clear in first post. It`s not illegal to promote possibility of winning, something along "Be a player, maybe winner" or "... could be a winner" with words of uncertainty like "could" or "maybe" being the key words. Not every bet guarantees a win and therefore its not true statement.

But this is not the only or most important reason why promoting gambling with statements that are not 100% accurate is illegal. It is illegal because gambling can lead to serious money losses, to serious addiction and MOST importantly, promoting it as a sure win is false advertising since gambling is in every way -EV venture if played by the rules.


EDIT: I see that Nate posted something which I noticed too. You`re defending 3dice at every opportunity You get, for reasons I can only speculate on. My best guess is that You still have good feeling about 3dice because You had some nice wins there. While this is Your right to do, regardless of the reason, there is really no need to start labeling people or calling them names. Remember one common say, "Love is blind", before you start defending anything or anyone to the point where you are willing to put your head on the line. Also, if You are willing to go extra mile for a casino just because you had a decent win than it might not be a bad idea to rethink your own stance towards gambling. Again, please dont see this as flaming, my motives are purely altruistic here.

[De Beuker]

There is a difference in the above. One is a statement... The other a Question...

Gambling, just like Alcohol and Cigarettes can become serious addictions. The difference with the above is that Cigarettes and Alcohol have no 'Monetary Rewards' at the end... You are not lead to believe that you can be a 'Winner' ..... (In some Cases Alcohol will make you think you CAN and WILL Score ...lol ... ). Some countries have warnings for Nicotine and Alcohol.

Certain regulatory bodies (they obviously differ worldwide) do not condone and specify that bets may not be accepted from visibly intoxicated patrons. If this is really enforced in some quarters, I don't know. Nobody cares about that online. You can sit, get totally smashed.

Advertising is a cut throat business. I have noted that Casino adverts on TV actually focus on the 'Entertainment' venues rather than gambling - You are correct in saying this. This could be due to regulatory requirements.

As you also pointed out, your interpretation may be different to that of others. It's a fair statement, although the statement IMPO is misleading.



Quite correct De Beuker. Internet Gambling is so widely available, if not controlled, some people will fall wayside. It is important for people not to have false expectations. With Da_Gambla's example above, the National Lottery is putting a question forward to you... 'Are You Next'? - This to me is not saying that you will be a winner and will pose doubts in the minds of individuals.

The Slogan 'Be a Player, Be a Winner' is a direct statement and will be illegal in many jurisdictions.

Im glad that countires like Norway are (from the sound of it) good with Consumer protection. Casinos are business entities and their ultimate goal in marketing is to attract players. When it is done in somewhat controversial manner, thats where the problem comes in.

I have recently noted a 'new form' of advertising circulating with regards to Internet Casinos. A flash screen playing a slot machine hitting a winning combination and a celebration win displayed in the form of coins spilling over. They are also often accompanied by statements like 'Play Now'... Your thoughts on this?

Nate

I'm afraid I don't share your views on advertising, not when it comes to responsible gaming.
Casinos will always advertise winners.
I think they have the right to do so.
I think everybody knows, or should know, that casinos are not some form of charity, and that these advertisments should always be taken with a grain of salt.
It would be very odd seeing a casino displaying a slotmachine in an advertisment that shows a losing combo.
And then: YOU LOST, SUCKER!!
That wont attract many new players I'm afraid...
Casinos simply have no choice, they either advertise winning/winners, or they dont advertise at all.
As long as they dont say you WILL win for sure, I cant have problems with advertising really.

Ofcourse there are also forms of advertising which are on the edge of criminal, like the one I saw a few months ago on Facebook.
Some shady affilliate was blatantly promoting the Martingale system as a way to beat online casinos.
The whole page was filled with lies, like:

"When using this system in a land based casino you will be kindly shown the door!" (No, they will welcome you with open arms)

"When using this system online, nobody is watching you, online play is not beeing monitored" (Yeah right)

He even adviced people to take a bonus, while the casinos he advertised do not even allow roulette play on a bonus.
And ofcourse the false Emails from 'customers' thanking him while stating they won 30K with his 'system'.

Thats false advertising, but its not the casinos who do that, its the rogue affilliates.

[LinkinFart]

I wont go into "winning slots promo" thingie.

You just reminded me of something else I forgot to mention De Beuker.

Promoting winners IS ALLOWED, those people did won money. Promoting winning is not.

[Da_Gambla]

Sorry Da_Gambla but You`re adding things up that arent there, please dont think of this as flaming just debating.

Well, then add this to the debate. The word 'winner' is a noun, which is based on the word 'win', which is a verb, an action. You cannot imply a value on an action, you can only add a value as an attribute to that action. Therefore, you can in fact win nothing. It's fact. Buy a scratcher card. What did you win? Nothing? Great, you won nothing. It matters not that the majority of the time, when the word 'win' is used, we expect that to be a plus. The fact of the matter is, the word is used many times with the attribute 'nothing'. Therefore, you can in fact be the noun 'winner' of the attribute 'nothing'.

Based on this, if we are adding invisible attributes to their slogan, one could easily say, to them, the slogan means 'Be a player. Be a winner of nothing.' That's perfectly formatted and acceptable English. Therefore, anything north of nothing is also a 'win', even if you lost money at the end of the transaction.

You buy a slot pull for $1 and are returned .50 cents. You WON that .50 cents, and I don't see the argument that you didn't. The worst you could do is lose $1, but then you are still a winner by definition because you won NOTHING. If you did win .50 cents back, you won .50 cents and LOST .50 cents. You net LOSS would be .50 when describing the total transaction.

"Be a winner". This is the problem. Dr.Pepper example is poor one, because it doesnt involve possibility of losing money on grand scale and it doesnt include addiction, at least not in the same form as gambling addiction. Also, You cant drink 1000 Dr.Peppers but You can play 1000 bets of various sizes.

But even if you somehow could drink 1000 Peppers You are getting what you paid for, not less or more. So in the long run, however this may sound stupid, If one pays X amount of money for 1000 Dr.Peppers he would always get the same amount in return.

Completely bizarre debate. I never compared Dr. Pepper to gambling. I used it as an example of how slogans work in general. I'll let your version there stand, as I don't even know how to debate something that far out in left field. Let's just let it die out there...

"So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER." This is where You add up things that arent there. Saying that someone is a winner because he won $0.50 on $1.00 bet is nothing but a marketing spin and is not a true statement. In every standard form of comprehension getting smaller return than your investment IS called loss not a win. However someone may spin this numbers dont lie for a second, if you`re getting same amount back its called breaking even, if you get greater amont back its called winning and if you`re getting lesser amount back it cant be called winning again, only losing.

Read above. If you put forth a wager, the worst you can do is lose it all. If you get anything back, you WON that amount back. Any amount returned on a wager is a WIN, even if the NET is a loss. Fact, mate. Sorry..

I`m sorry if I didnt make it clear in first post. It`s not illegal to promote possibility of winning, something along "Be a player, maybe winner" or "... could be a winner" with words of uncertainty like "could" or "maybe" being the key words. Not every bet guarantees a win and therefore its not true statement.

But this is not the only or most important reason why promoting gambling with statements that are not 100% accurate is illegal. It is illegal because gambling can lead to serious money losses, to serious addiction and MOST importantly, promoting it as a sure win is false advertising since gambling is in every way -EV venture if played by the rules.

Look, whatever. I'm just happy you chaps aren't in charge of these rules. They may be bad now, but I'll accept them as is, versus the alternative you're proposing. I live in a world of more facts than beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is, the word 'win' is a verb, and there's no implied value to it. It is either given a value, or any number can be variably applied to it, including ZERO.

- Keith

[Nate]

It would be very odd seeing a casino displaying a slotmachine in an advertisment that shows a losing combo.
And then: YOU LOST, SUCKER!!
That wont attract many new players I'm afraid...
Casinos simply have no choice, they either advertise winning/winners, or they dont advertise at all.
As long as they dont say you WILL win for sure, I cant have problems with advertising really.

Ofcourse there are also forms of advertising which are on the edge of criminal, like the one I saw a few months ago on Facebook.
Some shady affilliate was blatantly promoting the Martingale system as a way to beat online casinos.
The whole page was filled with lies, like:

"When using this system in a land based casino you will be kindly shown the door!" (No, they will welcome you with open arms)

"When using this system online, nobody is watching you, online play is not beeing monitored" (Yeah right)

He even adviced people to take a bonus, while the casinos he advertised do not even allow roulette play on a bonus.
And ofcourse the false Emails from 'customers' thanking him while stating they won 30K with his 'system'.

Thats false advertising, but its not the casinos who do that, its the rogue affilliates.

I agree with your stance on advertising. My intention is to get your thoughts on the subject as I don't necessarily see an issue with it. I know that, this form of advertising would be banned on TV? Lol - Just imagine a Casino which shows the 'True' spins in an Ad... 125 Spins to activate the feature... funny thought

The post on Facebook is VERY interesting. Thanks for sharing. This is certainly not in the spirit of Responsible Gambling and aimed at misleading the public. I wonder if the advert was reported or not? If the advertisers were making so much money, they would not pay to advertise

Nate

[Da_Gambla]

Keith, I have tried to look at your posts more positively. It's obvious once again, that after I raise several points about several software providers, you jump right in and defend 3Dice. No problem - Even if you do not agree with what I say, just don't keep taking PERSONAL Jabs and making this thread into a name calling fest.

I posted something that came to mind and you go the route of trying to prove you have superior intellect or I just don't know what I'm saying. In all honesty, I do not want to argue or respond to your comments. The idea of the post was to spark a discussion, if you cannot do this without making personal assumptions of my intellect or whether i have a gambling problem, DON'T bother to reply to me.

I would like to continue this discussion with other members in a sensible way. Thanks!

Nate

Actually Nate, it doesn't work that way. You don't tell me what public posts I can chime in on, and which ones I can't. You posted something that came to mind, I responded with things that came to my mind. It's an even exchange. While it's all good fun to 'debate' with everyone who agrees with you, at which point is it actually a 'debate'?

I'm quite capable of backing up anything I post, and take responsibility for. If you don't have thick enough skin to take responses that you might not agree with, then clearly the problem lies with you, not me.

I am assuming you either have a current gambling problem, or are recovering from one. That is based on irrational concepts you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try to control other people's worlds.

If none of this is true, and your life's mission is to save everyone from themselves, well... what can I tell you? I can just speak for myself. DON'T SAVE ME. I'm capable of wiping my own arse, thanks!

- Keith

[Nate]

Actually Nate, it doesn't work that way. You don't tell me what public posts I can chime in on, and which ones I can't. You posted something that came to mind, I responded with things that came to my mind. It's an even exchange. While it's all good fun to 'debate' with everyone who agrees with you, at which point is it actually a 'debate'?

I'm quite capable of backing up anything I post, and take responsibility for. If you don't have thick enough skin to take responses that you might not agree with, then clearly the problem lies with you, not me.

I am assuming you either have a current gambling problem, or are recovering from one. That is based on irrational concepts you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try to control other people's worlds.

If none of this is true, and your life's mission is to save everyone from themselves, well... what can I tell you? I can just speak for myself. DON'T SAVE ME. I'm capable of wiping my own arse, thanks!

- Keith

Keith, I appreciate responses, whether or not they are in agreement with me. When responses get personal, they are uncool.

I am assuming that you have a psychological disorder or are recovering from one. This is based on irrational jabs you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try and turn a sensible discussion into a war of words.

If none of this is true and your life's mission is to make assumptions, what can I tell You?

Seriously, you are welcome to discuss / debate or comment on anything. Don't make it personal.

Nate

[LinkinFart]

Well, then add this to the debate. The word 'winner' is a noun, which is based on the word 'win', which is a verb,...

And everything related to this including definition of slot pull win.

Verb "Win" (link)
Noun "Winner" (link)
Noun "Bet" (link)

Slotpull, or bet, is not comprised of only placed bet OR winnings. You are IN FACT betting, not buying, that outcome of the next round will be positive for You. Once You place that $1.00 bet and You get WINNINGS of $0.50 the outcome of the bet was that You`re a LOSER. Just because you didnt lose entire bet that time, which is also likely event, it doesnt make you a winner.
Want it in simpler form? How to determine winner/loser 101:
Write down bet amount (in case you forgot that you placed a bet)
Write down the win amount (while you`re writing why not write this down too)
IF BET>WIN THEN LOSER
IF BET<WIN THEN WINNER
IF BET=WIN THEN BREAKEVEN
GAMBLERSANONYMOUS.ORG

Look, whatever. I'm just happy you chaps aren't in charge of these rules. They may be bad now, but I'll accept them as is, versus the alternative you're proposing. I live in a world of more facts than beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is, the word 'win' is a verb, and there's no implied value to it. It is either given a value, or any number can be variably applied to it, including ZERO.

- Keith

As You can see in the links I posted above word "Win" has some expected value, not defined but still it is expected positive value.
Same goes to word "Winner", it is a positive expected value.
It is correct to use "win" in situations like: "I`ve won space flight"
It is not correct to use "win in situations like "I`ve won a death sentence"
comprende

[Da_Gambla]

And everything related to this including definition of slot pull win.

Verb "Win" (link)
Noun "Winner" (link)
Noun "Bet" (link)

Slotpull, or bet, is not comprised of only placed bet OR winnings. You are IN FACT betting, not buying, that outcome of the next round will be positive for You. Once You place that $1.00 bet and You get WINNINGS of $0.50 the outcome of the bet was that You`re a LOSER. Just because you didnt lose entire bet that time, which is also likely event, it doesnt make you a winner.
Want it in simpler form? How to determine winner/loser 101:
Write down bet amount (in case you forgot that you placed a bet)
Write down the win amount (while you`re writing why not write this down too)
IF BET>WIN THEN LOSER
IF BET<WIN THEN WINNER
IF BET=WIN THEN BREAKEVEN
GAMBLERSANONYMOUS.ORG




As You can see in the links I posted above word "Win" has some expected value, not defined but still it is expected positive value.
Same goes to word "Winner", it is a positive expected value.
It is correct to use "win" in situations like: "I`ve won space flight"
It is not correct to use "win in situations like "I`ve won a death sentence"
comprende

The problem you are facing is that, if you are going to accuse some company of a misleading slogan, the burden of proof that it is misleading becomes yours. You have thus far failed to do that. You have trotted out only the most rigid definitions of 'win' and 'winner', and just are conveniently believing no other usage of those terms exist.

I love going way out into 'exaggeration zone' with people who like to force their rigid views on everyone else, so let's do that..

Your statement above agrees with my previous post: anything returned to the player, even if it does not equal or exceed his wager, is considered 'winnings'. The only beneficiary of 'winnings' can be the 'winner'. I stop there, and consider that if at any point you can be defined as a 'winner', then that satisfies the meaning. You continue on and say, whilst someone is a winner at that point (has taken possession of some winnings), that definition can change once that person stops to consider what their wager was, and then that net result can label them a 'loser'.

Now, taking you by the hand into the 'exaggeration zone', I will point out that you have a LOT more work to do here. Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after EVERY wager? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after a particular session at a particular game? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after an overall session in a particular casino? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated during a particular day/week/month/year? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated over every wager you've made in your lifetime?

Some of these obviously start becoming rather difficult to calculate.

Coming back to reality, I would suggest that at every point outlined above, you can in fact calculate and state whether you were a winner or loser at that point in time. Therefore, we have just wiped your rigidness completely out of any argument, as it's now been proven that whatever time period you want to apply to "Be a winner" is not including all other possible time periods. You are forcing ONE possible time period for the sake of argument, but it's just argument for argument's sake, and not fact.

We agree that a return on a wager is commonly referred to as 'winnings'. We should be in agreement that the only beneficiary to winnings would be the 'winner'. You have not made any burden of proof that a company's slogan "Be a winner" should be calculated on the exact point in time YOU want it to have, and since other variables will always exist, you will never do so.

It's just... fail. Sorry.

Thanks for playing, though!

- Keith

[all4greed]

Regarding the old reverse your withdrawal theme, I got this gem from Villento yesterday regarding my first withdrawal:

The e-cash company may contact you in order to verify certain details. Please endeavor to assist them as best as possible so that your funds may be paid to you without delay.

Should you wish to reverse any portion of your cash withdrawal back to your Real Account, you may request this by contacting Customer Support through one of the support mechanisms below.

Come on now. I already went through the "feel free to cancel your withdrawal within 24 hours" spiel, enough already.