4 common gaming myths

**jetset** · 13th February 2011, 06:56 AM

Probably a combination of all of those factors

There must be a corporate reason why so many large online gambling groups do not appear enthusiastic about showing RTP, and there can be a lot of speculation about what that might be.

One of the most frequent reservations expressed about RNG testing such as that performed by TST (which is now part of GLI, I think) is that it represents a snapshot in time rather than an ongoing and continuously monitored dynamic result. That's an interesting discussion all by itself.

It perhaps demonstrates a desire on the part of the operator to ensure RNG fairness (and more cynically it's seen as a good marketing tool to reassure players as well)

My personal belief is that the display of RTP would probably not have the catastrophic consequences that some providers appear to fear. And there is value in the whole operational package presented to players if it is done consistently and professionally.

Stand by to get a regurgitation of the RTG variable RTP debate here btw!

**Da_Gambla** · 13th February 2011, 07:59 AM

This being a predominantly player based forum, there is a LOT of ingrained skepticism when it comes to RTP. As Jetset pointed out, snapshots of RTP aren't going to do much for people who are 100% sure there is a conspiracy when no one is 'looking' in an ongoing manner.

There is an interesting phenomenon that has developed over the last many years. It used to be that if you had a gripe with a casino, you could post just about anything concerning their fairness, and since the industry did have so many roguish operators, it didn't take much convincing to start a riot. Mind you, these weren't people with PAB issues by and large, they were just people who lost, gambling. There are always a few PAB cases per year that end up going against the player, and there are typically 2 types - either the player was doing something clearly fraudulent, or they just didn't understand the T&C's or ask questions where their play might be borderline. The fact that these cases get resolved to the casino's side doesn't really matter, as by that time the resolution and proof is posted, the thread is full of tons of misinformation and some flat out lies.

Now moving to the forward, there are many operators who have brought their standards way up, but are still subject to whatever conspiracies a losing player wants to throw out there, either discreetly or not so much. One thing that hasn't changed much is that players by and large will back each other's complaints, without asking or needing any proof, because "all casinos are crooked or suspicious". Someone can post "I lost x number of deposits in a row" and no one will ask them for proof of the actual number of deposits they are claiming, the actual amounts of those deposits, or how that money was actually wagered through for the losses. We're just to assume that casino "ripped them off".

Would a published RTP do anything there? I would say, likely not. A player convinced they were swindled will never stop trying to tell their story as a 'veiled' warning to others.

If I thought a significant portion of casinos, that were either accredited here or had no apparent roguish behaviour, were capable and willing to rip me off, I would STOP playing entirely, but that's just me. I'm lucky and have Vegas as a neighbour, and therefore a backup.

So, as Jetset pointed out, spot checking doesn't solve the conspiracy theory that casinos will alter their software after it's been checked, or alter it for just certain players. If ongoing checks are made, then new conspiracies will be brought that the monitoring companies are being paid to look the other way, etc etc..

I believe, for a fact, that there is some truth in some of the posted conspiracies, and I do believe that certain casinos might alter their games. I believe those things, because I'm human and subject to the same emotional reactions as anyone else to things I read and experience. I still deposit and play because gambling is a side-event in my life, and if these conspiracies exist, it doesn't really affect me in a profound 'got to get to the bottom of this' way. I clearly understand I cannot force these businesses to reveal anything to me on my immediate demand. Therefore, I consider every deposit by me to be a completely voluntary action that I will take responsibility for.

Published RTP, and even more so, ongoing monitoring, would encourage a player like me to fan out and experience more. As it stands, once you have a few favourites that you trust, you stand pat. The first group of casinos to stand up and embrace anything new like this will get the first customers. I'll be one of them.

Best,
- Keith

**4 of a kind** · 13th February 2011, 05:57 PM

PlexRep Quote:

An air of skepticism and mistrust still dominates this industry it seems, so my question is if we as operators pay TST to perform these tests and then openly share the information what would happen?

This is the crux of the whole problem with online gaming mistrust. Firstly, what online casino would selectively choose a company and then voluntarily pay for testing and then post for all to see any negative or unappealing results? Maybe they would follow up with a disclaimer like this: “our rtp’s may be the worst around but if you’re lucky enough to win, we’ll pay you in less then 24 hours”. How is it you expect anyone to take serious, testing results from a chosen outside company that is being paid voluntarily from the ones being tested? I for one need a little more then that to be convinced when billions of dollars are being profited. It’s obvious to most that online gaming after a decade has proven they are operating in a lawlessness environment.

This is a quote from the TST home page:

"Compliance testing ensures that iGaming systems operate in a manner consistent with prevailing regulatory policies of the jurisdiction from which the gaming systems are hosted".

It seems that the testers and the tested all seem to share this alleged “regulatory policies”. Why isn’t this information with online gaming shared with anyone that asks like land based regulatory agencies always still do? I e-mailed and snail mailed written requests to several online regulators, requesting online gaming regulations in their jurisdictions, and a year later I still don’t know if they even received any of them.

When I’m in Vegas or anywhere in Nevada, I already know what all the regulatory policies are, along with the average RTP for whichever casino I decide to visit, and where to go if I felt cheated. I could contact the “Nevada Gaming Control Board” where my complaint would be heard and regulations would be checked confirming one way or the other the actual results. If a casino was found guilty of not abiding by the rules, I could expect a full refund and know serious consequences, be it fines, warnings, or licenses being revoked will be implied.

Online gamers could care less what the average RTP for any casino may be for a chosen month or a quarter, let alone any test being performed when and if the operator damn well pleases. Then to top it off online casinos expect us to take serious these alleged RTP settings being provided by a chosen testing facility being paid by the casino and then be willing to advertise these RTP’s as serious results.

Sorry, but without regulations with proven serious consequences and regulators doing consistent random on site testing and their results always being made public like this chart for land based casinos: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post352999 there is just no way any person could take what any online casino is willing to say serious when it comes to RTP’s.

Even the RTP chart I pointed out above for land based casinos is not in real time. Whatever the average RTP settings are in that chart are from the past confirmed playing history. We know just by asking that Vegas, and Atlantic City casinos can operate machines with a minimum of 84% RTP’s. We know they can’t change any RTP on any machine unless it hasn’t been played for at least 4 minutes. We also know that the gaming commission must be notified and witness any changes. We also know there will be monthly regulatory monitoring and that each different size coin denomination machine is averaged independently then together for a total RTP rating. This doesn’t mean because that chart says that $5.00 dollar machines average RTP setting for this period in a certain casino were 94% that a player couldn’t find himself sitting at one paying only 84%. But if a land based casino wants to stay competitive they’ll make sure they look good on that factual chart. A good land based player would follow that chart and based on an average and the size machine that fits him or her best decide where they think they could get the best game for their bankroll.

Today if I have a problem or felt cheated while playing at an online casino where could I go? Bryan or Max and pitch a bitch? Just the name alone “PAB” should tell you how ridicules this whole online gaming crap actually evolved into. Yes, I agree its better then absolutely nothing, but it’s nothing more then an arbitrator if lucky enough to even have communications with the casino in the first place, making decisions based on home grown T&C’s. Never once in any PAB settled, be it good or bad for the player was a decision based on actual gaming regulations. I know PAB recovers mid 6 digit numbers annually, but this number is a joke when compared to the billions being stolen. I would also like to see the numbers when PAB was in favor of the players and never were able to recover anything for the players.

Please don’t take the above comments as anything against Bryan or Max. I realize their time and efforts should not be taken lightly, and they are in fact here trying to help the wronged. It’s just sad and pathetic that this is all the players have of even the slightest hopes of any realistic fairness.

Can someone direct me to a forum like CM loaded with endless complaints of unfairness and money literally being stolen right out of the player’s hands about B&M’s that operate in real jurisdictions like Vegas, and New Jersey? I think not, instead you will find sites like the wizard of odds that discusses endlessly the best strategies available for the players giving them the best bang and hopes for their bucks. Forgetting about the MIT card counting teams, and other obvious cheating players in these land based casinos that got caught, have you ever known of slot players winnings being confiscated and accused of collusion, banned, then robbed with other players for sharing playing strategies against a slot machine?

Online gaming early on had the opportunity to take this market to new limits; instead they made it what it is today. You could rest assured that many serious (financially sound) professional gamblers were all over online gaming early on and are all long gone now. Online casinos now base their business on luring new customers to them with ridicules bonuses, and taking advantage of the ill informed and rookie gambler. Of course their will always be the high roller online gambler lurking around. But this is usually a result of a person with a lot of money and a gambling problem, or is new to it and only a matter of time till he or she also vanishes.

I’m not sure how long it took to clean up Vegas after its early launch, but as long as online gaming could get away with whatever it is they want, be it good or bad, why would they want anything to do with transparency? Las Vegas was no different then online gaming when it first started. That was a big era for gangsters running casinos with rigged slot machines, professional card dealing sharks, loaded dice, magnetic roulette wheels etc... That all was cleaned up with regulation and enforcement that could be trusted, and now look at what land based casinos became where this regulation and enforcement exists.

I regret that my online gaming addiction kept me active for so much longer then when I realized I knew better. Before I'd even consider coming back I would need a lot more then what PlexRep is suggesting. At least he’s making some suggestions, regardless of their actual impact.

For the alleged (until further notice) good online gaming sites that are out there, and trying to do things right, maybe instead of being forced to waddle in the mud with the rest of the pigs and their reputations, should get together and try to do something about it from their end. It’s obvious after a decade that the players are not able to achieve this goal from their end.

**felicie** · 13th February 2011, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by jetset

Probably a combination of all of those factors

There must be a corporate reason why so many large online gambling groups do not appear enthusiastic about showing RTP, and there can be a lot of speculation about what that might be.

One of the most frequent reservations expressed about RNG testing such as that performed by TST (which is now part of GLI, I think) is that it represents a snapshot in time rather than an ongoing and continuously monitored dynamic result. That's an interesting discussion all by itself.

It perhaps demonstrates a desire on the part of the operator to ensure RNG fairness (and more cynically it's seen as a good marketing tool to reassure players as well)

My personal belief is that the display of RTP would probably not have the catastrophic consequences that some providers appear to fear. And there is value in the whole operational package presented to players if it is done consistently and professionally.

Stand by to get a regurgitation of the RTG variable RTP debate here btw!

Another debate would be good for me Jetset because one of these times I'm going to understand it all. Maybe.

**Da_Gambla** · 13th February 2011, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by 4 of a kind

[.. snip ..]When I’m in Vegas or anywhere in Nevada, I already know what all the regulatory policies are, along with the average RTP for whichever casino I decide to visit, and where to go if I felt cheated. I could contact the “Nevada Gaming Control Board” where my complaint would be heard and regulations would be checked confirming one way or the other the actual results. If a casino was found guilty of not abiding by the rules, I could expect a full refund and know serious consequences, be it fines, warnings, or licenses being revoked will be implied.

[.. snip ..]

I’m not sure how long it took to clean up Vegas after its early launch, but as long as online gaming could get away with whatever it is they want, be it good or bad, why would they want anything to do with transparency? Las Vegas was no different then online gaming when it first started. That was a big era for gangsters running casinos with rigged slot machines, professional card dealing sharks, loaded dice, magnetic roulette wheels etc... That all was cleaned up with regulation and enforcement that could be trusted, and now look at what land based casinos became where this regulation and enforcement exists.

This was an example where business won out over lawlessness, and this is rare for that type of 'cash' industry. The majority of businesses that wanted to be legitimate had to fight this for many many years, but they ultimately proved that the superior long-term goal was valid. They literally saved that entire city.

Please note that the gamers traveling to Vegas had extremely little impact on Nevada Gaming. It was the million and billionaires who were fine with being transparent in exchange for more legitimate business. We won't see this in internet casinos until they decide they want legitimate business. Our screaming and yelling will always yield very small impact until then, because as you pointed out, there are too many addicted gamblers and newcomers not aware of the trap they are entering. Those 2 entities will cause untold more years to this process. It will take ONE casino owner to start that snowball rolling, and then it will be even more years after that before it becomes the norm.

So Nevada Gaming can control Nevada games. Who can control international gaming, especially since international government entities cannot even figure out how to get some money from all of this, much less regulate it. You can lock down business in a CITY, but a globe? That's big. Really big.

- Keith