4 common gaming myths

[vinylweatherman]

"but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will."

'Allowed to share' pretty well sums up the conclusion that I myself have come to accept and I appreciate a rep finally saying it right out.
Thank you good thread.

This is where the myths stem from. Players wonder WHY something that should be "innocent" has to be kept secret. The logical conclusion is that there is obviously something to hide, and the matter is not as "innocent" as it seems at face value.

Take RTP - innocent enough. It's just a number, and like a rate of interest on a savings account, seems nothing to hide. The problem is that casinos DO seek to hide this number from players. Some refuse to even publish ACTUAL payout statistics, so they have something else to hide.

When something like this is kept secret, and many other questions are met with "not allowed to say", it has players looking for something dodgy.

How come even the LAW is secret? This is a completely ridiculous concept


Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

[Nifty29]

I'm not sure we are being 100% fair to the OP here.

When the rep said "but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will", I think he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Anyone who has worked for any kind of reasonably-sized business will know that there are some aspects of the business that are commercially sensitive. One cannot expect any casino rep to come to CM and post anything and everything specific to their employer - it is totally unrealistic and unreasonable.

Also, just because something is commercially sensitive, doesn't mean that it is something underhanded or dishonest. It doesn't mean that just because a rep won't answer a specific question they are trying to cover up some huge conspiracy to rip players off.

Think of yourself as a casino owner for a moment (if you can). Would you want everyone knowing exactly how you get your funding for instance? Or exactly how you group players according to 'value'? Or how exactly the entire backend software operates complete with screenshots and demonstration video? Of course not. Why? It is commercially sensitive. No casino in the world, online or B&M, regulated or not, will allow you just to maisey on in and demand to see everything that goes on behind the scenes just to satisfy yourself that you are getting a fair game. Yes, they do it for the regulators, but then you have to ask the question - do you trust the regulators? I'm sure there would be ample incentive to look the other way from time to time, and no government wants a casino to close down believe me.

In the end it really comes down to trust at one point or another.

Personally, I would put more trust in a casino who encourages it's reps to come here and post as openly as possible and answer any questions they are able to, as opposed to a casino who avoids the membership at every opportunity and has a 'talk to the hand' attitude.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

I know if I were the OP and read some of these posts, I would probably just think "I'm wasting my time" and go somewhere else where things I say aren't treated with suspicion.

P.S. Comparing entities like utility companies to casinos isn't even in the same ballpark. When is the last time a leaflet was sent around to everyone, or handed to every customer when they walked in, by a casino informing everyone of a change and what everyone can expect etc.

[Da_Gambla]

Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

I totally agree with that in spirit, but the comparison doesn't really apply. Public utilities are generally monopolies within their service areas and the service is usually life sustaining.

I would love to see the same numbers you would, but that likely won't happen unless a group of them starts doing it to attract business, and the business comes their way. At that point, the others will decide very quickly whether to pony up the same stats. This industry has proven that, as far as things that concern player trust, they generally won't do anything unless forced to, and there's not much forcing going on. It's still fairly 'Wild West' out there.

- Keith

[PlexRep]

he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Thanks Nifty. You're bang on with regards commercially sensitive material, and there are also NDA's (non disclosure agreements to those unfamiliar) to consider. As I mentioned before I've not really dealt with that aspect of the business directly before, but since this thread took a turn in the direction of RTP's and payout percentages I've fired off a few mails to find out what I can in fact share. I shall keep you all posted as I go.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

Thanks for the support. I fully understand why some people would remain wary of both me and the industry in general. It's an expected and understandable response considering the 95 odd casinos currently rogued here at CM. You (and it would seem the majority of posters) see the benefit of a rep with at least some of the answers though, so fear not as I plan on sticking around.

[Seventh777]

Just a few questions for Plexie......

Let us cast aside the actual RTP aspect and look at the revenue needed to stay afloat side of things, every business needs a certain amount of cash per month to cover overheads, wages, marketing, insurances, licences /certificates, taxes, and much more, and lastly but no means least - a profit, in my business (building and renovating), which is a highly competitive market our target is 20% profit after the costs have been met, this figure is pretty much the norm with a high percentage of similar companies using the same procedures and price guildelines regarding labour and materials, you don`t want to price yourself out of work nor cut your own throat either, a lot of tradesman however are seasonal and a majority of their work is outside, so it`s a fair bet that out of every 12 months they will lose 6-8 weeks due to inclement weather, this lost time will be covered in their overall wages per annum forecast, and adjusted to suit.

So where is all this going you may ask, well here are my questions... As we all know there is a global recession (not to gloomy in the good old UK it seems as the GBP is a very strong currency atm), so, as like any other business what happens to the average casino when the monthly outlays are higher than the monthly incomings?, how will a certain RTP % threshold, balance the books?, the rogue casinos ofc cover this aspect by not paying out, so how do the accredited casinos cope with an adverse trading market, surely it would be in their interest and ofc their own survival to keep their heads above water, the only way that is available, and that is to reduce payouts to match the income and thus keeping afloat.

Now if this is the case, and tbh we all completely understand it, would it be deemed acceptable behaviour by the customers? and at the same time making our beloved and highly respected casinos look nothing more than those we despise in the rogue pit, basically a catch 22 situation, but one, I feel has to be kept under wraps due to the adverse knock on affects it would yield.

Ofc I could be completely wrong here and put my last 6 -12 months of very poor wagering, features, win streak high end balances a lot lower, notably fewer loyalty points redemptions, even though my deposits were roughly the same, and the one aspect the hits me slap in the face is the huge reduction in screenshots taken from roughly July-August (again no significant change in my overall betting patterns to have warranted this), of awesome hits etc, to a bad run of luck.

Now, I can probably state that I speak for many of us that have also experienced all of the above over the past year, if, as is the case with any business that runs purely on cash, money starts becoming tighter, people tighten the belts, incomes rapidly drop, measures have to be taken, do our local landlords start watering down the beer or raise their prices?, we are all man/woman enough to acknowledge hard times call for hard measures, but, we don`t (and i`m no way accusing you of anything underhand here) like the PTB pissing down our backs and telling us it`s raining .

[vinylweatherman]

I'm not sure we are being 100% fair to the OP here.

When the rep said "but should I come across anything that I am allowed to share that I feel would be beneficial for players to know too, rest assured I will", I think he was referring to anything relating to the player experience that was not commercially sensitive.

Anyone who has worked for any kind of reasonably-sized business will know that there are some aspects of the business that are commercially sensitive. One cannot expect any casino rep to come to CM and post anything and everything specific to their employer - it is totally unrealistic and unreasonable.

Also, just because something is commercially sensitive, doesn't mean that it is something underhanded or dishonest. It doesn't mean that just because a rep won't answer a specific question they are trying to cover up some huge conspiracy to rip players off.

Think of yourself as a casino owner for a moment (if you can). Would you want everyone knowing exactly how you get your funding for instance? Or exactly how you group players according to 'value'? Or how exactly the entire backend software operates complete with screenshots and demonstration video? Of course not. Why? It is commercially sensitive. No casino in the world, online or B&M, regulated or not, will allow you just to maisey on in and demand to see everything that goes on behind the scenes just to satisfy yourself that you are getting a fair game. Yes, they do it for the regulators, but then you have to ask the question - do you trust the regulators? I'm sure there would be ample incentive to look the other way from time to time, and no government wants a casino to close down believe me.

In the end it really comes down to trust at one point or another.

Personally, I would put more trust in a casino who encourages it's reps to come here and post as openly as possible and answer any questions they are able to, as opposed to a casino who avoids the membership at every opportunity and has a 'talk to the hand' attitude.

I would hate to see someone like plexrep stop posting due to some members' conspiracy theories and those who insist that every casino rep is deliberately hiding the truth, or knowingly feeding us a pack of lies.

I know if I were the OP and read some of these posts, I would probably just think "I'm wasting my time" and go somewhere else where things I say aren't treated with suspicion.

P.S. Comparing entities like utility companies to casinos isn't even in the same ballpark. When is the last time a leaflet was sent around to everyone, or handed to every customer when they walked in, by a casino informing everyone of a change and what everyone can expect etc.

Unfortunately, "commercially sensitive" is as misused as "technical issues". Both are used to avoid telling the truth, rather than because something is REALLY so sensitive that letting competitors know would undermine the business.

Why is THE LAW ITSELF considered "commercially sensitive". Surely EVERYBODY affected by a law has a right to know what this law says.

Why also is RTP considered "commercially sensitive" when any competitor who was REALLY that interested could simply calculate it (or get a near approximation) from the game layout. The same goes for reelstrips, they can also be analysed simply by playing the game and slowly building up a picture.

These cases when claimed to be "commercially sensitive" is just a load of BS, since it is information that can easily be found out through analysis.

Maybe algorithms to categorise players ARE commercially sensitive in the sense that the better they are, the more effectively the casino can keep the players it wants, and encourage them to spend at their casino, rather than the competition. The problem comes when PLAYERS see proof that they have suddenly been classed as "second class", and the casino lies to them by saying that EVERYBODY is being treated the same in order to hide the fact that they even HAVE such a procedure in place. This causes the secrecy to backfire, and fuels speculation that something "dodgy" is going on. Far from protecting the business, this can DAMAGE it.

Non Disclosure Agreements are when one company tells another that they cannot pass on some of the information pertaining to the product. These are often excessive, and force quite innocent information to be kept secret, along with anything that is REALLY going to help a competitor.

Every now & then, an operator gets caught out CHEATING, and ONLY gets caught because they accidentally let slip some "commercially sensitive" information. This has shown players that CHEATING is considered "commercially sensitive", rather than just plain wrong, by a few operators. Since no-one knows just WHO is cheating until they are found out, EVERY operator faces suspicion when something happens that doesn't seem right.

Players build a mental model of how online casinos work, and it is when they experience something that contradicts this model that they start asking questions. If they then get "can't say" as an answer, rather than an explanation that allows them to modify their mental model to allow for what they have experienced, and reconcile it with "fairness", they will start to wonder whether there is cheating behind what they have experienced.

[LinkinFart]

Just a few quotes from thread at other forum, this is about showing members of a forum how everything works in online casino through webcast, operator in question was RTG:

August 05, 2009. 09:44:38 AM CASINO REP: "Great ! i was thinking all the lines of what the software does, how it works, how slots payouts are calculated, and of course, me! Anything else?"

August 05, 2009. 11:44:13 AM FORUM MEMBER(which was lucky enough to see preview):
"...i just sat through on a preview tour of what Casinojack has in mind and I think everyone is going to really enjoy this. It is informative and gives you better understanding, not only on what happens when you hit that spin/deal/draw button, but on how the actual games get configured, why some machines hit better than others at different times and different bets and a variety of other aspects pf game play."

August 05, 2009. 03:05:40 PM FORUM MEMBER(Same that saw preveiew):
Well folks,
Looks like the plug got pulled on this. RTG itself contacted Casino 33 and informed them that they could not do this webfeed, after receiving complaints from some of the other casinos.
So as of right now, the planned showing is canceled.

Here is the link to that thread: LINK

[Casinomeister]

...As regards Malta authority being a joke...mmmm...do not agree. The Malta LGA has considerably tightened up the last 2 years, difficult now for companies to even get a Letter of Intent before a full license is given...

Their infrastructure may be good, but their player relations people are clueless. What good is a license if you can't deal with player issues? Might as well have a license to sell shoes.

Could you be more specific with us here which reason mentioned above by Bryan is preventing your casino from being on the accredited list after 8 years of existence?..

It could be the outsourced support. I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

[felicie]

This is where the myths stem from. Players wonder WHY something that should be "innocent" has to be kept secret. The logical conclusion is that there is obviously something to hide, and the matter is not as "innocent" as it seems at face value.

Take RTP - innocent enough. It's just a number, and like a rate of interest on a savings account, seems nothing to hide. The problem is that casinos DO seek to hide this number from players. Some refuse to even publish ACTUAL payout statistics, so they have something else to hide.

When something like this is kept secret, and many other questions are met with "not allowed to say", it has players looking for something dodgy.

How come even the LAW is secret? This is a completely ridiculous concept


Our Energy companies are regulated, but not only can customers see what regulations the companies have imposed on them, the companies themselves even have to send us leaflets to explain these regulations to us, and what has to happen when they are breached. How come this is such a problem for online casinos that we are supposed to trust with far larger sums of our money.?

I agree completely VWM, I just didn't say it right as usual. It IS a big pile of secrets and the loyalty given these casinos by their employees, past, present, pissed off or happy is the real mystery to me. However, it's their rules and until better regulation comes we can't do much about it. I was just glad to see a rep come out and say it straight out that they are not allowed to tell us certain information instead of ignoring our questions and then we never see them again. That's all


Here in So. Cal, our energy companys are a lot more transparent these days also and rates are lower, but it wasn't long ago that the PUC (Public Utilities Com.) and I were on a first name basis discussing our bill every other month and they even assigned a special electric guy to our house - one that wasn't scared of dogs. Or me. We get along really great now.

[PlexRep]

Just a few questions for Plexie......what happens to the average casino when the monthly outlays are higher than the monthly incomings?

RTP issues and any rogue activity aside for now, there are still plenty of ways a casino can pull things back or improve their bottom line. As you know this isn't quite my area but as always happy to provide my opinion. (If any other reps want to take a stab come on in, the water's fine )

From my perspective, if an operator wants to improve their profits or reduce losses it comes down to a few simple options. First up is obviously attracting new customers (while making sure your existing customers stick around of course). A well timed and executed promotion can also do wonders, but get it wrong and… well… anyone see the recent Betfair thread? Promotions and offers can all be adapted and this will also affect the margins. If the losses are more long term internal cuts may even be considered, but like anything this is a fine line. Cutting down on customer services staff for example might save you thousands every month, but if this leads to delayed responses customers may in turn also leave.

I will agree that the 'easiest' of all options is sadly to go rogue... but it's far from the only option and I would like to think is only looked at as a last resort.

Now lets get back to RTP again for a moment....

I'd be curious as to your level of knowledge/trust towards external testing or monitoring companies such as TST. (This is an open question... not just for seventh) . I'm sure some of you are already familiar with them and most of you will at least have seen the name around at some point. Here's a link for those who want to learn more: http://www.tstglobal.com/

What they offer to do is come in to your casino and run checks, then provide an average RTP for each section based on their findings. You won’t get a breakdown by individual games, but at least an average per area (ie: average slots RTP, Table games RTP etc..)

An air of skepticism and mistrust still dominates this industry it seems, so my question is if we as operators pay TST to perform these tests and then openly share the information what would happen?

Would you trust the findings and take them at face value, or remain skeptical and assume they might be rigged numbers somehow? Would you start comparing the RTP findings for different casinos and make your decisions where to play based on them, despite the fact that your overall experience can still differ?

What is more important to you as players? Is it getting a 1% better rtp, faster withdrawals, better customer services, bigger and better bonuses? Maybe we need a new thread and a poll here....

Your feedback here will be brought back up the chain and may help me shape the way our own sites are run and presented, so don't be shy. Have a think about it and tell me how you feel the industry would change if every casino had the average RTP displayed (and I mean every one... even the rogues who may be less than honest...)

Thanks for your feedback.