Landbased slots versus online

[lojo]

MaxBet may have been referring to a complete RNG cycle without a reseed?

Wish I could find the post, maybe AKA23 will happen by this thread, he detailed rng and prng very well in another thread.

I could be wrong, but how I remember it a RNG has a seed, or specific starting point and will go through its cycle... for a landbased slot, that is about 1000 times per second and the entire cyle is billion(s) and last about a year. This can be reseeded at any time or place in the cycle but it isn't necessary.

A Pseudo RNG reseeds (at random?) from events outside of human control; like the weather or the stock market, or increased radiation from solar flares, etc.

HERE is a good history of the slot machine and an example of random appearing nonrandom

[solarrocker]

Thanks for the link lojo, hope it will help others get out some of the confusion.

I do know that most only RNG use an outside source to determine there seed, at least most good ones.

I know this as a company I used to work with back in the day had one of the first hardware determined RNG for their online play. We are talking around 1990 here, this generator got hacked due to the RNG using only 1 CPU to determine the seed, it was found that this seed was hooked to the CPU clock. All the hacker needed to do back then was synchronize to the clock and bam he could determine any out come. After this came out the place almost went under (It eventually did) but they changed it so it used always a minimum of 10 different CPU clocks, this seed can't be hacked unless we get Deep Thought into it.

Still I rather trust the online RNG then the ones at land based casinos (again those that are respectable).

RNG are a tricky thing as every software does this different so it is hard to say how they really work without knowing the software. From what I know at any point in online software you are able to hit a big win, a good bonus or nothing at all. And if it is a good RNG then it should and will not remember that huge win you just had 1 spin ago and give you just as much chance to get that spin again (goes also for cards/keno any game where the RNG is being used). And I have seen it happen.

[lojo]

Seems I read about that debacle (here?) somewhere

That's a good point you make about the results of the next spin having nothing to do with a win or loss on the last spin. It took me quite awhile to wrap my head around the fact, that on a fair slot, the RNg and the Program are independent.

• The RNG feeds the program a number (most programs retrieve this at spin button being 'pushed')
  
• Program has a mathematical formula based on longterm payout percentage that will, over time, payback 95% if house edge is 5% The 'formula' is that an occurance of 1/x pays (x*houseedge*betsize). In other words if a win category represents half the possible combinations, it pays out _nearly_ 2 times the betsize.
  
  
• Some symbols pay more than others because they are more rare
  
• Low variance games give many small returns to achieve EV
  High variance games give fewer but larger paybacks to achieve the same EV Although better worded as low variance games have wincategories that on average contain more combinations. (and thus because of the previous rules, happen more often but payout less.)
  
• RNG is not concerned with how many lines, how many coins, nor their denominations. It is not interacting at all with the program except to feed a number when called for.
  
• A fair program is not concerned either, it will produce the same screen results when I bet one cent one line or $5 per line on all 15 lines.
  
• The program only uses my bet size and lines wagered to calculate my payback

italics compliments of 3Dice clarifying previous post of mine

These are the things that fair onland and online slot machines have in common. (Though it has been proved to me that some B&M slots have better rtp for dollars than for quarters, etc. but they aren't the norm afaik)

3Dice meets these criteria, we've been assured by Ed Ware of Microgaming that MG meets this criteria (some slots pre-thunderstruck are 'weighted' but don't recall if it's better to bet less or all lines on those... Zoozie knows ) Playtech, at least at xxlclub casino meet the criteris.

Any other casinos wanna chime in?

[lojo]

Any other casinos want to chime in?

[SlotsWizard]

I don't know what the truth is, but from experience on "Video Slots" , the land-based counterpart are nothing but a joke as far as payouts are concerned in my opinion. Do you think you could hit $1,170.00 on a .50 cent bet in a land based casino on their Video Slots? I think not!... and I'm not referring to a progressive win either. Bonus rounds in land based are even a bigger joke, often paying 20X wager or less pretty routinely.. and the players consider 20X a good win. Pffft!!

I couldn't agree more! B&M slots are horrible! The other day I was walking by someone who was playing a nickel machine, her friend was watching as she got the bonus round, winning 100 coins... the one who was watching got all excited and said "YES! You got the hundred!"

I had to keep my thoughts to myself but I really wanted to shout "It's only FIVE DOLLARS!"

I don't know if it's the coin thing that confuses people and they can't figure out how little they are actually winning or what.

[Spirit In Black]

Each time a game is played, it is a independent event. What happens on the next spin does not depend on what has happened previously - unless you are playing the Fruit style games - they're rigged.

You will find this is consistent with both B&M slots and online slots. The fact that people can have really good runs or pretty ordinary runs depends solely on chance and luck. For me....my luck is always bad!!!

Remember - there's millions of unique results for any slot, we only normally see a very small window of these results when we are playing.

[tim5ny]

I couldn't agree more! B&M slots are horrible! The other day I was walking by someone who was playing a nickel machine, her friend was watching as she got the bonus round, winning 100 coins... the one who was watching got all excited and said "YES! You got the hundred!"

I had to keep my thoughts to myself but I really wanted to shout "It's only FIVE DOLLARS!"

I don't know if it's the coin thing that confuses people and they can't figure out how little they are actually winning or what.

Exactly SlotsWizard! It's what they're conditioned to expect I guess.

[paul02085]

Exactly SlotsWizard! It's what they're conditioned to expect I guess.

No doubt. BM Video Slots are terrible compared to online.

[garycm]

Each time a game is played, it is a independent event. What happens on the next spin does not depend on what has happened previously - unless you are playing the Fruit style games - they're rigged.

You will find this is consistent with both B&M slots and online slots. The fact that people can have really good runs or pretty ordinary runs depends solely on chance and luck. For me....my luck is always bad!!!

Remember - there's millions of unique results for any slot, we only normally see a very small window of these results when we are playing.

Where is the definitve proof to your statement? The industry wants to have us think that "trust us, it's all just random". I've read lots of slots facts also but after years of personal experience I'm doubting the truth to it all. Why is it that some of you guys are agreeing that "fruit slots are rigged" but yet the other slots out there are truly random? Maybe the program these other slots use are a bit more clever at hiding their "rigged" payouts. Why is it that when a person plays (for example) the 10x's slot where you can play $1,$2,or$3 per play and depending on how many coins you play you "qualify" for the payout only if you bet max (3 coins) and when you play 1 or 2 coins the 10X's reel lines up quite often ( for no pay out of course) leaving the person to beleive "if only I had bet max! (if it's random then it should still play the same but it doesn't)but of course when you play max the 10x real never lines up all day or at another casino I play at (different town) a flaming 7 machine has a bonus feature that if you play max (2 coins on this one) and you get the "dollar" symbols appearing anywhere on the screen (doesn't even have to line up) you get a bonus of either $25,$75 or $5000 depending on if 1,2 or 3 symbols show and when I play 1 or 2 coins I get all three dollar symbols coming up also quite frequently (maybe 15 to 20 minutes) of continued gameplay. Did I just lose out on $5000 by not playing max? Oh yeah, more like $15,000 because it came up 3 times in an hour when I only played 1 or 2 coins. It's a business and I find it hard to believe that a person spending say a million dollars opening up a casino online (or where ever) just crosses his fingers and hopes that some lucky guy doesn't hit the 2 million progressive in his first week of opening and wipe him out. I've got more to say but (like after complaing to an online casino of not getting any big enough wins to cash out for a few month's and having them deposit $20 free into my account and saying "try now" and walking away with over $3000 in 1 hour, hmmm, they have control over more than we think.) it's getting late (more like early in the moring) and I have to work in a few hours so I'l yap a bit more on my observations later. -gary

[GrandMaster]

It's a business and I find it hard to believe that a person spending say a million dollars opening up a casino online (or where ever) just crosses his fingers and hopes that some lucky guy doesn't hit the 2 million progressive in his first week of opening and wipe him out.

Progressives are not a problem, they only pay out money that has been collected from players, apart from the initial seed. Large non-progressive wins or a high-roller going on a lucky streak could cause a problem (see Pirate of Caribbean 21), but the chance of this happening are tiny for a well-run and adequately capitalised casino. For others, there is always Start your own casino software. The most common reason why casinos get into trouble is ill-conceived promotions, for which they then blame the players ("bonus abuse").