why i no longer will play online....

[hippo925]

i strictly played rtg because i liked their slots. recently, notoriously bad luck streaks made me wonder how things could be so different since i started playing. i thought, maybe it's just me, you know..... just repeated bad luck streaks as if it wasn't my month.

so i thought i would try to objectively look at my play to see if it was just a misinterpreted view like many of us tend to have when losing. you know, how we tend to think a game is rigged, not random, etc... something to blame because we feel we can't be that unlucky.

so i tried some new sites and some old ones again....

49'ers : deposited 200, got 200 bonus: $2 bets on achilles, finished in 1.5 hours, less than 15% of playthrough completed.

club world casino(new rtg on accredited list): $300 plus 300 bonus, played achilles again... about 3 hours, less than 25% playthough completed.

sci-fi casino: 200 plus 400 bonus, less than 2 hrs, 15% playthough completed. second deposit 250 plus 500 bonus, about 4 hrs, 25% playthough completed.

tired MG, trident lounge: 200 plus 200 bonus, about 5 hrs, different bonus system (released in increments), played avalon... $30 out of the 200 bonus was transferred to cash account so im guessing about 15% playthough met. why does MG software seem more "random" than rtg? ( the reels don't make sense on rtg slots, almost like a predetermined payout with reels picked to match the win)

when i first started playing, i had no troubles meeting wagering requirements at the four casinos i played. now, i wasn't even close to meeting them at all at the four i just tried. i have played rtg slots so much that it is very difficult for me to believe that things aren't different and that i am just "unlucky." i'm sure others have the same "feelings."

with the new law about to go into effect, i thought of what i would do if i had a casino and was thinking in a purely "business" manner. knowing that it may all end soon, why have higher payouts than necessary. wouldn't a casino want to "milk" as much out as possible? what would the repercussions be since the longevity of casinos that cater to U. S. players is highly questionable? if you look at it from a purely business standpoint, it kinda reminds me of a corporation telling it's stockholders to keep their stock and buy more even though the corporate board knows they are heading for financial collapse, doesn't it? how many players are experiencing this extra "bad luck?"

anyway, this site has been great and casinomeister does a great service. good luck to all those who continue online gaming because i really hope that i am wrong about what is going to happen.

 

[KasinoKing]

You should have been visiting Casinomeister more often.
There have been quite a few threads in recent months all saying RTG have done something awful to their slot payouts.
I even started a thread on this myself:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-reducing-their-slots-payouts.14114/

This 'tweaking' of the odds happened sometime in August as far as I can detect and made RTG slots un-playable as you describe and as I also found out very expensively.

But there is a very simple solution, say FU RTG and play Crypto's & MG's instead!
(Well, MG's in your case - no Crypto's allowed in USA for the moment).

 

[swampwitch]

Sorry...but hippo925's experience at any given time could mirror mine...and a lot of other players'. My losing streaks could fill volumes. RTG, MG, Boss....wouldn't matter. And then, once in a very great while, there will come a couple of days where I can do no wrong.
hippo925's post is well though out and I'm not about to...just this once...tell him he's full of it. But I don't believe that Micro and RTG have been slogging the reels to offset what they'll lose if the US goes catty wampus completely on online gambling.
In other words...how was hippo925's win/lose ratio REALLY before Frist got his dirty mitts on the Ports Bill?

 

[Simmo!]

The biggest problem with playing online, as opposed to at B&M's, I think is "time". In a B&M you go, stay for a while then leave and its more effort to go back. Online is always there and you win one minute but you could be back and playing in minutes, hours or next day.

It requires you to have more structure about your play if you want to avoid overdoing it. You might treat it like a B&M. Like okay, this weekend I'm off to play online, returning to normal life on Monday etc. Easier said than done but with less playing time, the losing sessions are less clearly.

Every casino has a house edge and I believe online casinos offer better odds than B&M's. I don't like the fact that RTG have introduced this "unknown" factor into their software which means casinos can chaage the payouts on some games and it's part of the reason I generally stay clear of RTG. But overall, if i spent as much time in a B&M as I do playing online, Im sure I'd be a helluva lot more down than I am.

But gambling is gambling. It doesn't matter if its online casinos, stocks and shares or lotteries. The odds are in the favour of business and it's up to the punter to decide if they want to dabble and up to the individual to decide who they trust to be fair. There is certainly enough advice online to make those sorts of decisions. You wouldn't gamble on share prices without researching first, and I don't think you should play poker or casinos without researching first - IF you're aim is to win.

I think you're decision is sound in that you will probably save money following a less expensive pastime. Horses for courses and each to their own

 

[hippo925]

thank you for your responses. i should clarify that i in no way have enough experience with MG casinos to really have any idea how well they play. in fact, my experience with MG so far hasn't been bad at all. yes, i lost at both casinos that i tried, but it seemed fair and more random to me and i had a fairly good time.

on the other hand, i have a lot of experience with rtg slot games. i did in fact keep up with the forum but at the time, i didn't think it would effect me, lol. i figured it was a few players with a run of bad luck. i can't imagine going to my indian casino to find that they lowered all their slot payouts. Just didn't seem like something a casino would do. a little naive maybe.

simmo brought up a great point that i have also pondered. it's like poker where people think it is not random because of the "weird" hands and crazy bad beats, but really it is more a function of the speed of play and number of hands compared to a B & M casino.

but even with faster play and increased hands, some things are just too improbable. for me, an online poker player getting AA is normal. getting it twice in a row is lucky. three times in a row is amazing. four times... that's kinda weird. five times... what's going on? six times in a row....something's not right. I'm sure you get the point.

is it any different for slot machines over thousands and thousands of spins? i think many of us have a "feel" for the game after playing it a long time.

this may be weird, but the way i thought of it is like this: if an rtg casino offered me $10,000 if i didn't hit a bonus in 1000 spins... how likely would i win that $10,000? well, i would have won $50,000 this last month. try playing cleopatra's gold in fun mode to see if u can do it...it's not easy. now try doing it 5 times in one month....im sure u see my point.

honestly, i really hope i am wrong about the possiblity that onlilne casinos may take a "get them while it lasts" mentality because i really enjoy seeing the screen shots and hearing about your wins.

and thank u all for taking my post seriously. i didn't want to seem like just another "sore loser." i really did put a lot of thought into all this and i appreciate that u all are doing the same.

 

[BBKPoker]

4 Bonuses is also a statistically rather small sample size (yes, I realize you made hundreds of wagers). The bug in their fruit slot for the bonus games is pretty well documented and that is certainly cause for some concern. Personally, I play a few of the reel series video slots. My guilty favorite is Hillbillies, and I'm up about $500ish playing several hundred $2 spins this week.

 

[amatrine]

Re

I went through over a grand the last two weeks playing the rtg real series slots.

They are not playing rite allright. Im done with real series games for good.

No fun in them anymore. Bonus rounds are far and few in between. I very rarley went above what I put in. (has been the case as Simmo said for a long time)

They used to be fun to play. I can not remember the last time I hit a bonus round on cleopatra.

The biggest hit I had on real slots in the last 6 months was $120 and it went dead after that. Last year I would hit the bonus feature a few times in a row.
Sometimes getting some really good hits. Now it seems you never hit it more than once, if you do hit it. Its too bad. They were fun to play once.

This is my theory. I think they are having more randoms (though Ive never hit one in five years playing) , but the slots are set at a very low payout, and in the long run paying the randoms is cheaper for the casino and they are making a bigger profit by the low payout.

Ill drive down to the Indian casino, thats smokey and crowded before I ever play a real series game again. At least when I played the machines there sometimes I cane home with a few grand. I have never once done that on a
real series game.

Amatrine

 

[Lord_Have_Mercy]

Well I decided to give Club USA CASINO A try yesterday. I deposited $100 and got $100 bonus from them. I played BJ and I kid you not. The dealer got 20 and 21 atleast 20 times out of 35 hands. I then redeposited $350 no bonus. I went to Video Poker (JOB) and didnt hit anything at all. Then I went to their Penguin real Series and lost $195 only 2 bonus round out of 600 spins at (.40 and $1)

Finally went to craps wagered on craps. Point was 8 betted $30 and placed $100 on side bet and $100 on 6. FIRST ROLL WAS A 7 and crapped out.

Afterwards my bankroll was only $75 now and went back to Penguin slots at $2 and $5 and now my account shows .15 cents.

 

[me_and_ed]

I have actually requested 49er to close my account, absolutely brutal, not even a chance of hope on 8 different Real Series.

 

[hippo925]

my experience is very simialr to amatrine's. to look at it objectively, i did make some observations (though not scientific) using the auto-play feature (you need something to do when in autoplay, right? lol)

cleopatra's gold is fairly predictable in the sense that the payback is around 60-70% if you don't hit a bonus in any session of 250 spins (playing auto-play repeatedly at $2 bets for 250 spins at a time allows for easy record keeping) in my experience, the bonus hits about once in every 150-200 spins. the average bonus win is about 25 times your bet (so $50 to $60 on a $2 bet.) a bad bonus is about 10 times your bet and a good bonus is 100-120 times your bet. the bonus will yield a re-trigger about once in 5-6 bonuses. obviously, getting the bonus determines the result of your 250 spin session more than anything else. these are things i noted the first 5 months i played.

for the last month and a half i have noticed this: bonus occurs about once every 250-300 spins (as i noted before, i have had 5 sessions where i got no bonus in 1000 spins), significanlty more bonuses paying less than 25 times the bet, obvious abscence of re-triggers, and very few bonuses above 100 times the bet. the most significant observation i made was that if you don't hit a bonus in 250 spins, the payback is about 40-50%. i think this factor was what really got my mind going because it is so obvious when using auto-play.

bbkpoker brought up the fruit slot issue and that is a great example of how players "know" there is something wrong. the whole issue of variable payouts is a scary thought. a "bug" that essentially disables or reduces a bonus round in a game would be a nightmare if it was "reproducible" by a casino.

are rtg casinos trying to build as much profit as possible before online gaming significantly slows? their software seems to point in that direction. it's difficult to believe that with these huge bonuses, how most of them could have anything but very low payouts. i see bigger bonuses coming with casinos determined to keep as much money as possible.

reputable casinos, especially sportsbooks and publically traded corporations, have already excluded U S players. as time goes on, what will remain are smaller, possibly less trustworthy casinos that see an opportunity to take up the slack while it lasts. there will be no incentives to paying out, only taking in. of course, there will always be trustworthy casino owners who will continue to offer a safe and fair place to play, but sadly, their decency will only put them in the spotlight and under more scrutiny. i don't think any casino wants to be the "biggest" anymore.

but trust me, i love slots i'll still be checking up on casinomeister and when u guys say it's safe to come back, i'll be there, lol. good luck to all of you. it' s been great.

casinomeister, i hope u never stop what u are doing. things would be 10 times worse if u did.

 

[amatrine]

Re

Something I noticed, it almost seems like some of the series slots are running on a repeating course. For instance, I will get 50 spins, and the next 50 will have repeats of 90 percent of the previouse loosing and small win screens rite down to the same symbol. I found it disturbing. Ronin is a good example.
I ran it on auto just for the hell of it at 40 cents per spin so I could get a lot of play and make sure I wasnt imagining things. I felt like I was on a cycle, getting the the same screens over and over again.

I know when something does not seem rite. And this does not. So I wont waste another dime on them. Its just no fun anymore. I will stay with RTG for poker and thats about it.

Amatrine

 

[cslate]

I have noticed the same things.
I also notice the affiliates keep defending the casino's actions.

 

[Simmo!]

I also notice the affiliates keep defending the casino's actions.

Where? Or are you just trying to derail the thread?

 

[Slotster!]

Just to throw in a completely non-scientific/random bit of experience... For the first time EVER, I hit a decent win on an RTG slot! $5 bet yielded $860 on the Aladdin slot. First time I've ever done anything half decent at Inetbet.

So there are still some wins to be had I guess?

 

[The Watchdog]

....

If you mostly play slot machines that is normal...

What did you expect? Hitting a Jackpot on all of them?

Slot machines are not easy, as a matter of fact they are impossible...

You want to improve your requirements? Play 3card, Pai Gow or Video Poker (if allowed by the casino)

 

[hippo925]

when i did try MG slots, i did notice they are quite a bit different from rtg slots. i don't know why, but MG slots do seem like they are more random. rtg on the other does seem to repeat patterns not only of symbol displays, but also of patterns of wins/loses. i may be wrong of course, but rtg slots play as if there is a "pool" of money from players that is randomly re-distributed after the casino takes a guaranteed percentage. rather than the reels determining the amount of a win, it seems a win determines the display of reels. the problem with that would be higher bets would yield a relatively lower payout since there may not be enough money in the "pool." that would explain why larger bets seem to have longer "bad luck" streaks or smaller wins. also, some have observed that higher bets might get the random jackpot more often.

too often have i gotten a good bonus at $1 or $2 only to see that $5 or $10 bets yielded "similar" bonus wins even though the bet is much higher.

this would certainly be a more "guaranteed" method of assuring the house hold percentage in large AND small samples. instead of relying on the statistical probabilities over a long period of time, a casino can avoid statistical variations by using this "pool" method to re-distribute funds.

an example would be blackjack. the house profits from the inherit probalbilites of the game itself. but what if a casino relied on a "pool" method to avoid large variations. a player's large bet blackack would be "replaced" by software to a bust. other players with smaller bets could still win and in a wierd way it would still be random. at times, many small betters would lose so the large bet could win. so instead of relying on the randomness of the game itself, funds would be re-distributed while guaranteeing a house hold. still random, but not what people would expect when playing the game. just a thought...

on another note, if this discussion can in any way have an effect on how rtg and its casinos manages its software, it will show that they take player's concerns seriously. if people start winning more and having more fun for their dollar i'll be delighted.

 

[hippo925]

hi watchdog,

i agree with you, slots are impossible and should, for the most part, only be played for its entertainment value. i think most people realize this. to be honest, my concerns have little to do with hitting another jackpot or winning a lot of money. i have been playing slots for years at B&M casinos and win or lose, what i expect is value for my dollar and a fair gaming environment.

if money was my only concern, i would continue to play poker. my mind seems to have a deep understanding of that game.

my question to you is: the whole fiasco with the fruit slot on rtg software and the english harbor incident... was that normal? i believe if people didn't raise awareness of those issues, very little would have been done.

i think that is the whole point of this kind of forum because issues that come up repeatedly could signal a problem. if the end result is that rtg slots start to play better for others and they can play longer with more enjoyment...hey, that's all good. maybe i'm just hoping to make a difference like a lot of the people on this forum.

oh, and i agree with you. video poker is by far the only electronic game where you can play for fun AND money(assuming one understands the game well.) but i think the best bet is always poker. it easily offsets my slot losses.

 

[silkprint]

I have been playing exclusively at Inetbet for my RTG fix but honestly can't just keep depositing with no chance of a cashout . I did withdraw 300 a few weeks ago but before that not for a while . I am going to have to give RTG break for while too.

 

[amatrine]

Re

I never expect to hit the random. I do epect to get some play time though on a fair machine. Im just stating the obviouse change in the programming.

If it was a couple sessions, I would say bad luck. But I play a few times a week, for many years. I can see a difference in the slot patterns, the payoffs,
and the amount of bonus rounds.

Im not mentioning any rtg's name because they seem to play the same everywhere these days.

I also agree on the shark casino thing, with the 200 bonus. I took it and
went to real series, and never got a bonus round on any game.

I went through 1,500 of my own money this last two weeks, and probably got a total of 5 bonus rounds, the largest was $120 I think, on Achilles. Then it went dead.

Just last year, I could play hours on ronin for $50. Sometimes hitting $600 on a dollar bet because of the multiple bonus rounds. They all seem to play the same way, with a siminar pattern. I will get down $50 then hit 20 then down another 50 and hit 20, and it will go on like this.

Id be stupid to play them anymore, when I get a fair game 20 miles down the road.

Like I said, rtg is still good for the video poker. I hit another royal yesterday at inet, though I didnt find the cashout button. Owell,lol I had fun.

Ama

 

[vinylweatherman]

Bad Runs

I have just had bad runs in 5 consecutive MG sessions, the play was not just bad, it was hopelessly negative, with "dead" hand after "dead" hand on all the card games. Where a dealer was involved, they were getting completely the opposite, many good hands and all 4 of the truly great ones that showed up.
Before this I had one good win at Ladies Nite at a Casino Rewards casino (they will probably pay up as I am Elite VIP now), followed by a great run at Intercasino (sadly, in dollars).
I managed to nurse 200 out of All Slots, but I am STILL down a fair bit this week. Luckily, I had decent runs last week to cushion the blow.

The MG casinos I had bad luck at are showing slot payouts (PWC Figures) down to 92% to 93% - this is damn low for a months worth, something must be afoot.
If RTG slots are showing repeating reel patterns to the extent of 90% of the previous 50 then this is damning indeed. They will be pressed to come clean about this, as clearly that is so improbable that any success in replicating the result is worthy of posting.
If they are using the pool method they are in breach of the rules of randomness, as this would imply that results of previous spins, even by other players, are governing the results in the base game, and not just building progressive pots.

 

[rma20]

I totally agree about RTG. I play at Bodog. But I do have to say I have had some decent hits lately. I realize it is gambling...but it is odd how bad everyone is doing.

But one thing I noticed was I don't continue to play the game for hundreds of spins. Ok to explain-I usually have good luck on the game Sunken treasure. I will play it and then when I do hit the bonus I exit out. And then re-enter the game. I find it will hit the bonus sooner than if I hit the bonus and just keep spinning over and over again to hit the bonus. I hope that made sense. And honestly proably doesn't *really* change anything. And I for sure stop playing if after 25-30 spins if its hitting nothing.

But overall I do have the worse luck with RTG.

 

[KasinoKing]

I have noticed the same things.
I also notice the affiliates keep defending the casino's actions.

Where? Or are you just trying to derail the thread?

I haven't see any either. I have a clear warning about RTG slots on my homepage.
(I haven't totally dumped my RTG's yet, as not everyone is a slots player).

What I do find interesting is that I have not seen ANY of the RTG casino managers who regularly visit this site, say a single word in denial that RTG have changed something.

In fact, their silence is deafening....

 

[silcnlayc]

In fact, their silence is deafening....

My husband just played $200 for less than 20 minutes at 1-2 dollars a spin and hit nothing at an RTG casino..I played right behind him at ANOTHER RTG casino for another $200 and the same happened with me..I busted out in less than 15 minutes..at $2 a spin..no bonus spins..nothing..coincidence..I think not..

Somehow, the software has been changed for I used to get bonus rounds on every game I played at least once in less than 50 spins....now, the bonus rounds are almost non existant..they cannot say that nothing has changed, for the proof is in the pudding (or is it the spins? )

 

[Lord_Have_Mercy]

I did the same thing yesterday at Shark Casino took the $200 bonus offer ($400 total) and played nothing but Pengiun Slot and JOB. Got only 2 bonus rounds at $2 a spin and the biggest was $38. I am finished with RTG. I went to MG and got everything back except for $175 from the last 2 days.

 

[clubworld]

Hi

I can deny any changes have occurred as I am sure many other RTG operators can too, although I am obviously not in a position to speak on their behalf.

We honestly have not noticed any difference in the payouts and nothing has been changed. People are still hitting random jackpots and winning from the regular games and we had a progressive jackpot winner last week so they are paying out as well.

In the time we have been with RTG we have had only one problem which was quickly rectified. We have had no cause for concern in the way the games payout aside from that.

Hope the silence has been broken to your liking.

Regards

Jason

ClubWorldCasinos.com

 

[Chatmaster]

One thing is for sure if there has been a change in there software, not being fully random anymore, it will show in their payout percentages in the near future. I doubt this will be the case though, it simply doesn't make sense for RTG to do this, I mean the odds are in the favor of the house...

Anybody investigating the game's mathematical structures? Maybe they added a few reels?

 

[clubworld]

My only reason for posting was to respond to Kasinoking's challenge and break the silence.

I am certain most people have heard at one time or another during their online experiences that the Casino has said that it is not in their long term interests for the games to be unfair.
This definitely applies to us and to tell you the truth the only checking we have done recently with RTG is to why we have had such high payout percentages. They said it is well within the norm so we have just carried on as normal and I know no change has been made or the stats would reflect this.

Jason

ClubWorldCasinos.com

 

[silcnlayc]

This definitely applies to us and to tell you the truth the only checking we have done recently with RTG is to why we have had such high payout percentages.

This statement must be one of the many that rings so untrue for why are so many players posting continuously the losses incurred by MOSTLY RTG software and the other item was where the so called random jackpots being hit by the same person numerous times when many others have played for years and never had a single win. there is a lot here that just does not add up...

1) Numerous complaints on small bets on slot sessions with large deposits that win nothing..busting out in less than normal time repeatedly by different players for the last few months.

2) Random Jackpots being hit (and names posted on the wins) by the same few players REPEATEDLY.... Luck? I don't think so for the odds are astronomical to hit more than once much less repeatedly....

3)

In the time we have been with RTG we have had only one problem which was quickly rectified.

And this goes to show that there was at least ONE glitch...now, why deny that there couldn't be others as the players feel since they are the ones that this affects and when something don't feel right, then, it isn't right!

BTW...Thank you for taking the time in responding...

 

[KasinoKing]

3) And this goes to show that there was at least ONE glitch...now, why deny that there couldn't be others as the players feel since they are the ones that this affects and when something don't feel right, then, it isn't right!

BTW...Thank you for taking the time in responding...

The point about this glitch is - it was obvious to anyone who regularly played the game - Fruit Frenzy. (I noticed it & I very rarely play it!)
But would RTG have spotted it if players had not complained?
I think it unlikely.
I'm confident this change to the program was accidental. But it happened none the less.

So what's to say that other 'accidental changes' to payout performance of their other slots have not been put in that are less obvious to spot...

I just want to make clear I have no vendetta against RTG or any of their casino's - just highlighting a dramatic change in the expected results I experienced with their Reel Series Slots - which has been backed up by many, many other players...

I too thank Club World for contributing to this thread.

 

[Chatmaster]

Jason,

Do you have your payout percentages audited by an independant auditor firm and if yes where can we view it? I tried to find it on your site but couldn't find anything...

 

[hippo925]

thank you for adding to this thread clubworld (jason). though my experience with your casino seemed to re-affriim my original concerns, another thread seems to show that u have great customer service and your willingness to discuss these matters affirms that. Keep in mind i was a great supporter of real time gaming software until these issues came up.

You stated that "We honestly have not noticed any difference in the payouts and nothing has been changed."

But in your second post, you stated that "to tell you the truth the only checking we have done recently with RTG is to why we have had such high payout percentages..."

that seems to be a contradiction and though i would like to consider it a simple error in syntax or wording, it seems it can only be one or the other.

i think of utmost concern is how so many players have noticed "something" different. what suprises me is that players have been able to make these observations in relatively small sample sizes. compared to most, my experience on rtg slots is quite extensive and it echoes the concerns of other players who probably didn't play as much as i have. small samples when added up become large samples which can then show patterns of concern.

i have always believed a casino has little to gain by treating their players poorly or offering poor payouts. However, the situation is quite different now with recent legislation.

if you don't mind, some questions to jason or any rtg representative:

1) why don't rtg casinos have reputable independent audits of their payouts like MG casinos? Where can players find out this information?

2) are rtg slots based on actual reels determined by a RNG or are the symbol displays simply a visual representation of a win or loss determined in "another" method? (such as a "pool" method that i described earlier in this thread)

3) are random jackpots truly non-dependent on wager size? or is it like a lottery where someone who bets $1 gets one "ticket" and someone who bets $10 gets ten chances? other rtg reps have stated that it is totally random at any lines played or bet....doesn't that disadvantage the higher betters?

4) is it true that rtg operators can change their payouts at ANY time? if so, can this be done on different denominations? Does rtg provide any oversight to how often and when payouts are changed?

5) Regarding glitches that seem to affect bonus rounds on slot games: has real time gaming re-evaluated thier software to find other "glitches" in other games? Are bonus rounds an adjustable factor as part of the payout scale?

On a personal note, i played rtg because their games were fun, bonuses not too infrequent, decent hits all the time, etc. i used to win and lose all the time, but the games played fairly so it was still great fun. It took a drastic and fairly obvious change (to me anyway) to take the fun away from games i have played and enjoyed so much.

i know that's a lot of questions, but i'm sure people will get some reassurance if jason or any real time gaming representative addressed them. of course, it is hardly Jason's or clubworld's sole reponsibility to address these concerns.

I'm just glad to see someone at least break a little bit of the "silence" by rtg and it's casinos.