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[maxd]

Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the total value of cases over the year?

If yes was it more than you expected? Less?

Like I said, just curious.

[chayton]

On the software list are the numbers just the 'resolved' PABs? I was a little shocked to see that MG was at the top of the software list for PABs and that it was double the amount of Playtech! But if it's just the resolved cases that makes sense.

[jetset]

Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the total value of cases over the year?

If yes was it more than you expected? Less?

Like I said, just curious.

Yes - and it was around what I would have guessed ie a relatively low average amount per complaint.

@Chayton - that number caught my eye as well and surprised me, as I have always thought that MGS operators on the whole would be less likely to generate complaints (or is it something to do with the amount of business MGS-powered casinos do in relation to operations powered by others?)

I would also have thought that the MGS number would be lower because a proportion of MG complaints would have gone to eCOGRA (those MGS-powered operators accredited by that organisation, which issues its own quarterly dispute stats.)

[maxd]

On the software list are the numbers just the 'resolved' PABs?

Those numbers include any legit case. In other words if the case wasn't incomplete or discarded and it was not player fraud (of whatever flavour) then it got counted as a legit case and was used to calculate the 'Software Provider Totals'.

I must say, I thought we had pretty much covered this by adding this note right on the table itself: "excludes cases that could not be processed or involved player fraud".

The end result of the way we do this is that if a player comes in, complains about this or that, and is found to be in violation of the T&Cs (for instance) then it gets included in the 'Software' numbers.

Of course we can get into endless debates (and have in the past) as to whether this is or isn't fair, does or does not shine the best light on this or that provider, etc etc. Some would argue "oh no! totally unfair" while others would say "hey, maybe it does indicate something meaningful". Yawn. We all know that statistics are what you make of them.

The bottom line is that the number is what it is, it tells you something -- but certainly nothing conclusive -- about the frequency of cases for a given provider. There it is. Basically take it or leave it as you like.

In other words the 'Software' numbers are just a rough indicator, nothing more. They cannot and should not be taken as an indictment or blessing of anyone for anything.

[RobWin]

Max, you do a very fine job of handling all the PAB Issues you are presented with IMO and the table below that you or Bryan or both have created is a good one also. I would like to see the line in BLUE added to it though since I think that info would also be relevant considering there is already a line item regarding the "Fraudster" player.



Pitch-A-Bitch Summary: January though December 2008
Total Pitch-A-Bitch Cases Submitted 347
PAB Incomplete (complainant AWOL) 31
Duplicate and/or Supplementary PAB 22
“No Can Do” 8
Transferred to other services or agencies 5
? subtotal: unprocessable cases 66

Fraudsters: fraudulent claims, faked ID, etc 29
Discarded: complainant AWOL, uncooperative, violated PAB rules, etc 34
Casinos: Acted irrationally, predatory, wrongly accused player, etc. etc. etc. ie:5
Closed: groundless claims, both parties at fault, “agree to disagree”, etc 32
Unresolved: no progress, stale-dated 3
Warning issued, site Rogued/Pending Rogue 27
Cases against Rogue Pit casinos 25
? subtotal: resolution not possible or inappropriate 150

Case Resolved, Complainant paid 131
? Total value of Resolved cases: approx $450,000 (€305,000)
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[maxd]

Hey Rob, thanks for the suggestion. Quick question: how would your 'Casinos' stat differ from the 'Warning' stat?

As I'm hearing you the idea is "if the players get flagged for fraud then the casinos should get flagged for unreasonable actions toward the player", no?

IMHO if a casino behaves as you've noted -- and it's a solid case, not just a "they're being dicks today" thing -- then they get a Warning and quite possibly Rogued or 'Not Recommended'. Would this not cover it?

If I'm barking up the wrong tree please set me straight.

[chayton]

In other words the 'Software' numbers are just a rough indicator, nothing more. They cannot and should not be taken as an indictment or blessing of anyone for anything.

Actually I would take this as a good point for MG, that they are at least able to resolve such a high number of cases. Playtech for instance may have a larger amount of complaints about non-payment but the casinos won't work with you to resolve them or they're on the no-can-do list or whatever.

I must say, I thought we had pretty much covered this by adding this note right on the table itself: "excludes cases that could not be processed or involved player fraud".

yeah sorry I didn't see that til after I posted...

[RobWin]

Hey Rob, thanks for the suggestion. Quick question: how would your 'Casinos' stat differ from the 'Warning' stat?

As I'm hearing you the idea is "if the players get flagged for fraud then the casinos should get flagged for unreasonable actions toward the player", no?

Exactly Max, that was my thought there...Thanks for the quick reply too..

IMHO if a casino behaves as you've noted -- and it's a solid case, not just a "they're being dicks today" thing -- then they get a Warning and quite possibly Rogued or 'Not Recommended'. Would this not cover it?

That could be true depending on the level of irrational behavior displayed toward the player by the casino. I guess I was thinking that for the casino to be issued with a warning against them though, the issue would have to be more dire in effect than the casino just simply making "cock ups" and blatant irrationalities toward the player, say for example in regards to a bonus promotion or ID Verification...thus the reason for the extra category IMO.
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[maxd]

Hmm, I see now where you're going with this. In other words the 'Casinos' stat basically would be for stuff like "they're being dicks today", yes?

If I'm reading you right I'd have to say that I'm not too comfortable with that. Mainly it's a 'public fairness' issue, by which I mean that I generally feel that something has to be pretty blatant and out-of-line in order to go so far as to flag it publicly. And this would apply equally to players and casinos.

For instance, for someone to get tossed into the fraudster category we pretty much need conclusive proof that they were systematically cheating the casino. Many registrations, clear and repeated T&C violations, repeated and/or prolonged bot use, etc. If it's just a mistake or suchlike then the case just gets closed with no punitive action against the player.

So more or less I'm thinking the same should apply to the casino. If they stomp on a player mistakenly or throw a hissy fit one day but are able to see the light the next I don't see that nailing anything to their front door is kosher either.

I guess another way to look at it is that I see the 'Fraudster' and 'Rogue' categories as a 'quantum' thing, meaning that the party involved has to clearly and deliberately be working at being a crook in order to cross the threshold. Then and only then is it fair to drag them out into public and brand them for it. There are fairly serious consequences once we take that step so it should never be done lightly.

All the one-off, whoopsy and 'my bad' cases should be shrugged off, IMHO, unless they are too severe to ignore. That leaves the 'good guy' door open in the hopes that the party involved will walk through it, or at least loiter with intent. There are more than enough folks out there who really are crooks, no need to press-gang people into that category.

[jetset]

Actually I would take this as a good point for MG, that they are at least able to resolve such a high number of cases. Playtech for instance may have a larger amount of complaints about non-payment but the casinos won't work with you to resolve them or they're on the no-can-do list or whatever.

Chayton, I think you made a very valid point there regarding the preparedness (or otherwise) of a provider/casino to assist in resolving player disputes through Casinomeister.

It was one that I did not consider, and clearly has a bearing on the stats presented.