Kahnawake Gaming Commission and UB/Absolute Poker

[threescatters]

No offense intended but you have stated more than once that Malta is somehow doing a better job than Kahnawake. Yes, we get your issue with the AP/UB thing and yes that needs to be looked into further to decide if the CURRENT KGC people have work undone there.

On the other hand the current KGC people are handling hundreds of player issues and, as has already been pointed out, many many players are getting paid because of it. Malta on the other hand is receiving and/or acting upon zero player issues, big small or otherwise. Who would you prefer to turn to? A place where the chances are very good you will get a fair and timely hearing or a place where you are assured that nothing will ever be done, regardless of the circumstances. That would seem to be a no-brainer IYAM and as such Malta is in no way, shape or form performing better than the KGC.



It hasn't been "suggested", it has been stated as a fact with stats and a track record to back it up. No need to obfuscate here, the "new" KGC is not a "suggestion" or a rumour, it is the flat-out truth.



That's an outrageous statement! Because they are not doing what you think they should be doing they are suddenly "tied to organized crime"? Sorry, but that's going way over the top and without hard evidence to back that up you are seriously discrediting yourself.

Hi Max,

Sorry if you think I made an outrageous statement, or that I am discrediting myself. I am trying to provide links for everything I say. I'll start from the top.

Malta/KGC. I agree KGC is handling current player complaints way more effectively. I also never said Malta is doing a "better" job than KGC. What I said was historically Malta has never been implicated in anything like the scandal the KGC has, which is correct.

the New KGC. Ok well I have never read about a complete change of staff there but I accept what you say.

The ties to organised crime thing. Well there is absolute concrete evidence here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...-stolen-99247/ of that link. You cannot deny that. Yes, it was the old KGC, but it was the KGC nonetheless.

[maxd]

... What I said was historically Malta has never been implicated in anything like the scandal the KGC has, which is correct.

One of the realities of this business is the numbers. Kahnawake licenses many, MANY times more casinos than Malta does. That alone dramatically increases the chances that there will be scandal at one of their licensees. Furthermore there is no point equating the AP/UB operations with the KGC itself. They are not the same thing. AP and UB were licensees of the KGC that did some dirt. That's not the same as the KGC perpetrating that dirt. The KGC's culpability after the fact is something very much to be determined AFAIC.

... Yes, it was the old KGC, but it was the KGC nonetheless.

You're not much of a fan of reform are you? Yesterday's crime does not make today's people criminals. I should think that much would be obvious. Sure, be sceptical, demand proof, but don't just repeat the past because is was true once. If everyone in this business who ever had a brush with the criminal element was beyond forgiveness simply because of that proximity I assure you that the vast majority of us would be damned beyond hope. Back in the day I sat down at the table with known gangsters. Did I do it because I thought it would be great? No, I did it because telling them flat out to "piss off" could well have been bad for my continued health. Then they went their way and I went mine. Am I beyond redemption because I took that meeting? I'd say no: AFAIC it's history, as it should be.

As I've stated before, continuing to paint the new KGC with blame for what the old KGC did is not only unfair it is damaging to this industry. Imagine how happy the truly shabby licensing outfits would be to read your posts. If I was someone at Malta or Cyprus or any of a dozen other bent and/or enfeebled licensing agencies I would be delighted to read your posts because they would, in effect, be saying "be crappy because doing a better job will never pay". Giving support to these worthless entities only ensures that they will continue to prosper and make the business as a whole much worse than it could be if people actually gave a damn about results instead of ... say, large booths at industry conventions.

And FWIW the "organized crime" thing in Quebec and its connection to the Indian territories is a much more complex issue than the casual observer or amature sleuth would like it to be. I lived there back then, the "bad guys" were all over the place. It was far easier to run into them than it was to avoid them. We're not talking about a completely civilized time and place here, things were complicated.

[vinylweatherman]

I suspect that it may be the Quebec provincial government that could be putting a spoke in the KGC wheel when it comes to white list recognition. The Kahnawake Mohawk enclave sits just outside of Montreal and its insistence on maintaining the autonomy it was granted by First Nation treaty has led to several clashes with the provincial government, some of which back in the past resulted in violence.

And with Quebec changing course from being against online gambling to actually operating its own Espacejeux.com internet venue, I imagine the antipathy has hardly decreased.

The KGC's pre-makeover and unfortunate history - as we have discussed in this thread - will not have helped, I guess.

There's an act just introduced in the British parliament which made it through under the Ten Minute Rule for its first reading and is now headed for a second reading in March. That act carries the secondary taxing intentions of the government forward, which means that as far as the Brits are concerned, online gambling takes place at the player (and not the operator server) end, and any internet operator wishing to access the UK market will have to get a licence from the Gambling Commission and pay a tax yet to be decided. The advantage of having a white listing will be that licensing evaluation will be somewhat easier, from what I can see.

Kahnawake operators, along with other offshore operators, will be faced with the choice of licensing and paying tax in Britain; eschewing the British market; or just saying F$&#@ it and going after the market anyway - but they will be constrained from advertising in terms of the new act.

It's a frustrating thought that (from a player viewpoint) useless jurisdictions like Antigua and Malta have the white listing advantage, whilst the KGC has not...for whatever reason....despite its makeover.

Now this UK act is on it's way to being made into law, UK players may soon be exposed to the same "no notice overnight account closures" as recently experienced by Spanish players at Jackpot Factory, and players from France and Greece earlier.

I can't see the UK government sitting back while the offshore casinos simply move back to the KGC, and accept that losing the right to advertise is a price worth paying for not paying the tax.

If the ONLY sanction the UK is going to use is the removal of advertising rights from operations without this secondary license, I can see operators deciding to use the internet for advertising, and not worry about UK media being lost to them.

The legal definition that gambling takes place at the players' PC is a great help though, as this means it comes under UK consumer law, rather than that of their licensing jurisdiction. This means that for those operators having a UK license and media advertising rights, entities like Betfair can no longer hide behind Malta's courts when it comes to disputes like "Happy Hour", and the recent horse race mishap.

The worry is that the tax will be set too high, and like the original licensing regime, no-one will be interested.

What remains to be seen is what the UK government will do about operators that take bets from UK players outside of this system. Will it still be up to the player to make the choice as now, or will they make efforts to have the transactions, or even the domains, blocked so that UK players cannot play.

It also seems that the whole idea of the whitelist will become redundant, as individual operators, rather than jurisdictions, will be licensed.

[jetset]

If this act passes, and there's no reason to suppose it won't, I can't see the Brit government sitting back and letting operators prepared to chance it continue to operate. There will, imo, be ancillary measures designed to make life difficult for illegal operators.

On a side note regarding the printed word; I think one has to be careful in assessing what is real evidence capable of standing up in court, and what is an 'indication', 'implication' or 'circumstantial' set of statements and what these are based upon, however well presented in often authoritative and assertive tones. This is not infrequently the case with internet message boards, and it sometimes makes it difficult for objective readers to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I mention this because it was something that again occurred to me earlier when there were references to 'organised crime' - a sensitive definition in itself - and implications that because former chief Joe Norton had once held an influential position among the Mohawks, it followed that the Kahnawake Gaming Commission could be subverted in his private and corporate interest despite its separate charter and management structure.

I think it's important for accuracy and fairness to distinguish in one's own mind what is provable fact (as was the case in much of the admirable AP/UB detective work by players) and what is speculative or implied.

[vinylweatherman]

If this act passes, and there's no reason to suppose it won't, I can't see the Brit government sitting back and letting operators prepared to chance it continue to operate. There will, imo, be ancillary measures designed to make life difficult for illegal operators.

On a side note regarding the printed word; I think one has to be careful in assessing what is real evidence capable of standing up in court, and what is an 'indication', 'implication' or 'circumstantial' set of statements and what these are based upon, however well presented in often authoritative and assertive tones. This is not infrequently the case with internet message boards, and it sometimes makes it difficult for objective readers to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I mention this because it was something that again occurred to me earlier when there were references to 'organised crime' - a sensitive definition in itself - and implications that because former chief Joe Norton had once held an influential position among the Mohawks, it followed that the Kahnawake Gaming Commission could be subverted in his private and corporate interest despite its separate charter and management structure.

I think it's important for accuracy and fairness to distinguish in one's own mind what is provable fact (as was the case in much of the admirable AP/UB detective work by players) and what is speculative or implied.

As far as Joe Norton and the KGC is concerned, it is nothing more than a "potential conflict of interest". It is not the same as him actually abusing his influence in order to persuade the KGC to grant him undue favour. Most UK MPs are in similar positions to that which Joe Norton finds himself in, and there is often speculation that they have misused their position and influence, and sometimes this becomes proven fact with MPs suffering sanctions and finding themselves having to resign to save at least some degree of respect. Transparent procedures and clear separations of interests are often used to prevent such speculation getting out of control. The KGC was set up under a separate charter, and have brought in an external member to hold the high profile post, not another member of the Mohawk, which might generate further speculation that internal interests are being served.


As for the UK, has a specific date been proposed for this new regime becoming law?

[threescatters]

Jetset as always I cannot argue with you, you are very well informed and present you points excellently, I have to hold my mouth shut now.

maxd to quote you "You're not much of a fan of reform are you?". You are totally correct and are spot on. I do believe it can happen but I am not giving enough chance here, I agree.

I should say that I have no vested interest in this in any way aside from being an online gambler. I do not think I was cheated by AP/UB nor have KGC done anything to me personally. What I am just desperate to acheive is a fair and open gaming world, free of both player and operator scams and regulated perfectly to all markets. I think that is what we should all be aiming at and I am constantly frustrated by players, operators and regulators when you read about the stuff that goes on.

[jetset]

As far as Joe Norton and the KGC is concerned, it is nothing more than a "potential conflict of interest". It is not the same as him actually abusing his influence in order to persuade the KGC to grant him undue favour. Most UK MPs are in similar positions to that which Joe Norton finds himself in, and there is often speculation that they have misused their position and influence, and sometimes this becomes proven fact with MPs suffering sanctions and finding themselves having to resign to save at least some degree of respect. Transparent procedures and clear separations of interests are often used to prevent such speculation getting out of control. The KGC was set up under a separate charter, and have brought in an external member to hold the high profile post, not another member of the Mohawk, which might generate further speculation that internal interests are being served.


As for the UK, has a specific date been proposed for this new regime becoming law?

It's just going to second reading at present, and as far as I know there is no target date set.

[jetset]

Jetset as always I cannot argue with you, you are very well informed and present you points excellently, I have to hold my mouth shut now.

maxd to quote you "You're not much of a fan of reform are you?". You are totally correct and are spot on. I do believe it can happen but I am not giving enough chance here, I agree.

I should say that I have no vested interest in this in any way aside from being an online gambler. I do not think I was cheated by AP/UB nor have KGC done anything to me personally. What I am just desperate to acheive is a fair and open gaming world, free of both player and operator scams and regulated perfectly to all markets. I think that is what we should all be aiming at and I am constantly frustrated by players, operators and regulators when you read about the stuff that goes on.

I think that is what we would all like to see, threescatters; I know I get angry and frustrated when operators (or for that matter players or regulators) behave badly. That's why I believe it is important to encourage reform and give credit when credit is due.

Edited to add a little information I have been researching today in light of the Norton-KGC relationship insinuations.

Joe Norton was not a member of, nor did he have any control over, the KGC - either before, during or after the AP-UB scandals. The chairman during AP and the first part of UB was David Montour. Dean Montour (no relation) became KGC chairman about mid-way in the UB scandal. There are also board membership precautions to preserve the Commission's integrity and independence in the regional sense.

[pokeraddict]

For the "old" KGC I would like to see

1) Full discloure of who did the cheating, and the passing of the evidence onto relevant authorities

2) Complete refunds. This includes Fixed Limit players, accounts that were cheated out of money and closed afterwards, tournaments players, and those passed up for other reasons.

3) Complete lifetime hand historys for anyone who requests them. This is a big one, and sadly will never happen IMO.

For the "new" KGC I would like to see.

1) Them to shut down the current UB/AP sites. They are bankrupt, have no withdrawl options and are still accepting deposits. They are allowing unsuspecting players to deposit into a void. This is unethical and wrong, I cant believe they are ignoring this.

2) Them to explain why they allowed UB/AP to have such a shortfall of player money. Reports at subject poker suggest they had as little as 10% of it on black friday. That is completely unacceptable and I think players deserve an explanation of why this was allowed, even if the end result is "theres no money".

3) Them to explain why Scott Tom was still allowed to be an owner, when it was constantly promised no such thing was happening.

Only in an ideal world would all of these happen, but I think it is a reasonable list of requests.

threescatters.

Someone drew my attention to this thread and I have only gotten to the point of this quote.

Old KGC

1a) It is ridiculous that KGC has refused to disclose the cheats and provide law enforcement with proof so that they can be tried in a court of law. The poker community served this case up on a silver platter after everyone at AP/UB/KGC denied it ever happened. The chief owned a part of it and I am guessing that swayed some of their decision.

2a) Absolute Poker owes me over $2000 from their insider cheating. KGC would not even reply to my emails from years ago, and Brent Beckley, who I once worked for as a prop at AP, basically told me my emails would no longer be replied to. I helped uncover part of the cheating scandal as it applied to the cheating account "steamrolle"r who turned out to be Scott Tom. Since I was one of the people that helped uncover the fraud, I guess this is what they felt I deserved, NOTHING. There are players from the UB scandal that have proven they are owed well into 6 and 7 digits who basically received nothing.

3a) Cereus deleted all of the hand histories.

New KGC

1b) I don't think the cashier at Cereus works anymore but I only think that from reading forum posts. If players can still deposit that is shameful, but there is no excuse for the site to still be operating.

2b) As I understand it, Cereus was somewhere between $35-40 million short even before the seizures. It was a house of cards waiting to fall. Obviously there was no sort of auditing. Considering Cereus was allegedly on probation, it seems odd that KGC had no idea at least 2/3 of player's deposits were missing.

3a) I knew Scott Tom was still running Cereus and his half brother Brent Beckley, who approved many of the cheating withdrawals, was still a part of it too. It was reported that Tom was caught leaving Costa Rica with millions in cash once upon a time after a crash landing (if I recall the story correctly). How did KGC not know the main cheat in their scandal was still a part of it if the poker community did?

One last thought about KGC. There was a paper loan after the UIGEA passed that gave owners bond paper that was worth $250 million. The group of preferred shareholders/bondholders were called Madeira Fjord. This group had not been paid since 2009 I believe. Cereus was in default for over two years before Black Friday. The bondholders knew Cereus was insolvent and it is hard to imagine none of them contacted KGC or that Joe Norton didn't know.

Cereus spun off into the empty shell Blanca Games. All it ended up being was a shell game to avoid lawsuits from defunct UB shareholders who AP stopped paying (yet another default). This shell game was approved by KGC.

Perhaps KGC has improved greatly and regulate casinos well, I don't follow the casino side very much. The whole Cereus thing is so shady that it is hard for them to get any respect from poker players until they take care of the skeletons in the closet.

One other thought about KGC. They allowed Cereus to continue to operate while insolvent after Black Friday. They knew damn well Cereus was bust and failing to honor their cashout requests yet they allowed them to continue to operate for 6 months after Black Friday, and technically still operate today. Is that what you expect from a legit gaming commission?

[threescatters]

Thanks pokeraddict you have all the concerns I do