Grand Duke Not Paying £7200 BJ Winnings Due to 'System'!

[jackieonweb]

As I'm sitting here writing this I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I'm not sure what possessed me to sign up to Grand Duke Casino, but anyway I did, I thought I'd try them out.

What I didn't envisige was me getting some extreme luck on Blackjack. They give you a bonus on your first deposits automatically, so I accepted the bonus of £150 first of all which I lost, I deposited £100 next and that's where my luck started.

I started playing Blackjack then after a little while the table started playing extremely hot, I played max bet the whole way of £200 and eventually won £7,200! From a £100 deposit!

Inbetween winning that and after, they tried loads of delay tactics to not pay me, I had to email them about 15 times to sort out all the bonus wagering miscalculations, cancelling my cashout in error, not looking at my ID, all sorts of crap.

When they finally ran out of excusues and it came to payment time today, they've hit me with this email;


We regret to inform you that after thoroughly going through your game history, we have found pattern play, which is easily associated with several types of BlackJack systems(Paroli and 1-3-26). This type of play is strictly prohibited in all casinos, including ours. In compliance with our terms & conditions, we are forfeiting your winnings, returning your deposits, and disabling your account.
Below you will find the paragraph in our T&C which pertains to your specific methods of play:

Fraudulent Activities; Prohibited Transactions, Offensive and Abusive Language
We have zero tolerance policy towards inappropriate play and fraudulent activity. All transactions are checked to prevent money laundering. If, in our sole determination, you are found to have cheated or attempted to defraud us or any other user of any of the Services in any way, including by way of example only, game manipulation or payment fraud, or manipulation of the multi-currency facilities, or if we suspect you of fraudulent payment, including use of stolen credit cards, or any other fraudulent activity (such as but not only any chargeback or other reversal of a payment) or prohibited transaction such as money laundering, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your Account and share this information (together with your identity) with the police, regulatory authorities and other online gaming sites, banks, credit card companies, and other such appropriate agencies. Please see our Privacy Policy for further details.


What on earth are they going on about? Aren't these systems a load of crap anyway? I done £200 hands all the way through!

[vinylweatherman]

As I'm sitting here writing this I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I'm not sure what possessed me to sign up to Grand Duke Casino, but anyway I did, I thought I'd try them out.

What I didn't envisige was me getting some extreme luck on Blackjack. They give you a bonus on your first deposits automatically, so I accepted the bonus of £150 first of all which I lost, I deposited £100 next and that's where my luck started.

I started playing Blackjack then after a little while the table started playing extremely hot, I played max bet the whole way of £200 and eventually won £7,200! From a £100 deposit!

Inbetween winning that and after, they tried loads of delay tactics to not pay me, I had to email them about 15 times to sort out all the bonus wagering miscalculations, cancelling my cashout in error, not looking at my ID, all sorts of crap.

When they finally ran out of excusues and it came to payment time today, they've hit me with this email;


We regret to inform you that after thoroughly going through your game history, we have found pattern play, which is easily associated with several types of BlackJack systems(Paroli and 1-3-26). This type of play is strictly prohibited in all casinos, including ours. In compliance with our terms & conditions, we are forfeiting your winnings, returning your deposits, and disabling your account.
Below you will find the paragraph in our T&C which pertains to your specific methods of play:

Fraudulent Activities; Prohibited Transactions, Offensive and Abusive Language
We have zero tolerance policy towards inappropriate play and fraudulent activity. All transactions are checked to prevent money laundering. If, in our sole determination, you are found to have cheated or attempted to defraud us or any other user of any of the Services in any way, including by way of example only, game manipulation or payment fraud, or manipulation of the multi-currency facilities, or if we suspect you of fraudulent payment, including use of stolen credit cards, or any other fraudulent activity (such as but not only any chargeback or other reversal of a payment) or prohibited transaction such as money laundering, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your Account and share this information (together with your identity) with the police, regulatory authorities and other online gaming sites, banks, credit card companies, and other such appropriate agencies. Please see our Privacy Policy for further details.


What on earth are they going on about? Aren't these systems a load of crap anyway? I done £200 hands all the way through!

Systems ARE a load of crap, and even "card counting" ONLY works in a REAL casino where the dealer deals from a shoe.

Online casinos CANNOT be beaten by ANY Blackjack system because EVERY hand is dealt from a new "virtual deck", and keeping a tally of past hands does NOT make any difference.

This is a bullshit excuse, and clearly one they had to work hard to produce whilst hitting you with stalling tactics.

Since you flat betted £200 all the way, you could NOT have been using a system in any case, since these rely on adjusting bets depending on the makeup of the remaining cards in the shoe - increasing bets when the deck is "ten rich", and decreasing when it is mostly filled with low cards, which favour the dealer.

For wheeling out an excuse like this, they should be fast tracked to the rogue pit. If by some chance a system COULD beat their Blackjack tables, it would mean the software is RIGGED.

This has been tried before on another member by a different casino, and they were thrown into the rogue pit. Further to this, their software supplier yanked their license because the allegation of "system play" being able to beat the tables being stated as FACT by the operator caused damage to their brand since it suggested that the games were not properly random.

They may well come up with a different excuse now that this has hit the forum, but it is too late - the mere fact that they have invented bullshit excuses not to pay is enough to have them rogued.

All that is now needed is the evidence, and a formal evaluation of this case by Max & Bryan.

To achieve this, first send a PM to MaxD outlining what has happened. If this casino is already in the rogue pit, you now know why, and Max will not be able to do anything about getting you paid.

If this casino is NOT in the pit, and NOT in the "no can do" list, then you should submit a formal complaint, known as a PAB.

A few of us may have a snoop around ourselves, if only to AVOID getting caught by this group and it's associated operations.

[Mousey]

we have found pattern play, which is easily associated with several types of BlackJack systems(Paroli and 1-3-26). This type of play is strictly prohibited in all casinos, including ours.

I'm ... flabergasted.... who ARE these people that think up this stuff??

Seriously... who owns/runs this casino???

Edited to add:

for those who don't know....

The Paroli betting system is a positive progression system and is considered to be the opposite of the Martingale system. In the Paroli betting system, you start with betting one unit. If you win the first bet you increase your next bet, instead of decreasing your next bet.


The name of this system, the 1-3-2-6 betting system, really explains it all. It's a system based on the betting pattern 1 unit, then 3 units, then 2 units, then 6 units. This type of blackjack betting system is based on the Paroli system and it's based on the premise that you can win 4 times in a row.
This system is a positive progression betting system which means you increase the betting amount when you win.

Strangely enough, my hubby uses the Paroli type 'system' in B&M casinos. A more casual way to play and manage your bankroll. He's never been asked to leave or forfeit winnings - even after a winning session - tho. LOL

[ergopro]

Unreal bs from Grand Duke.

[Repro]

I'm ... flabergasted.... who ARE these people that think up this stuff??

Usually those people are called "managers".

[vinylweatherman]

Software = Playtech
Operator = Integra
License = Malta
Excuse= Bullshit

So, THIS is the standard we expect from a new casino that has just signed a deal with Playtech.

Playtech has signed an agreement with Integra Gaming to become the exclusive platform provider for the Malta-based company’s Grand Duke Casino. The deal will see the online casino accommodate more than 150 games from Playtech’s stable, in both download and flash formats.

We regret to inform you that after thoroughly going through your game history, we have found pattern play, which is easily associated with several types of BlackJack systems(Paroli and 1-3-26). This type of play is strictly prohibited in all casinos, including ours. In compliance with our terms & conditions, we are forfeiting your winnings, returning your deposits, and disabling your account.

Well, we all suspected online Blackjack wasn't random, and now we KNOW by admission of an operator that it is FACT that Playtech Blackjack can be BEATEN by one of these "snake-oil" systems.

I have been a long time critic of Playtech for the persitently poor vetting of licensees, and the fact that when an operator pulls a stunt, Playtech just look the other way.

This is nothing new, and previous cases have involved rogue operators stealing progressive jackpots paid in full by Playtech, but not forwarded to the winner because of bullshit excuses. The largest offenders were Joyland casino, which kept half of a CAD$ 4Million win, and then quickly sold the business leaving no trace of where the CAD$ 2Million ended up; and the other was a progressive payout never forwarded to it's South African winner, and neither was it returned to the pool. This is theft from ALL players who have contributed through playing the games.

I cannot understand how a big company like Playtech just keeps on getting away with this. They are listed on the London Stock Exchange, and this operator is licensed in a UK whitelisted territory.

Maybe turn the heat up by asking Trading Standards to look into this, as this outfit is based in Malta, and this gives them rights to market directly into the UK through TV and magazines. Since you have had over £7000 taken with a bullshit excuse, you could even try contacting your MP over this, since the UK government are looking again at the current whitelisting system, and are noting the "abuses" of some operators who rip-off consumers because they are supposedly well regulated through being in a whitelisted territory.

There is nothing better than the actual victim making an official fuss for getting something done about it. It is hard for an interested third party to get regulators interested in something they have read about, however bad, since they would not have access to all the evidence.

[DepositSpinLose]

excuse me for a few moments, i have to go take a grand duke.

[jackieonweb]

Thanks VM for that info. I have submitted a complaint to the LGA, and mentioned the whitelisting that I was not aware of, hopefully that will add some weight to my complaint.

This looks like a 100% open and shut case, as their claim I used this particular 'system' is incorrect, and even if I did, so what? There's 100's of 'systems' out there, any casino could apply one of them to a small portion of anyones play.

This casino should be 'rogued' here asap so this bullshit doesn't happen to anyone else.

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks VM for that info. I have submitted a complaint to the LGA, and mentioned the whitelisting that I was not aware of, hopefully that will add some weight to my complaint.

This looks like a 100% open and shut case, as their claim I used this particular 'system' is incorrect, and even if I did, so what? There's 100's of 'systems' out there, any casino could apply one of them to a small portion of anyones play.

This casino should be 'rogued' here asap so this bullshit doesn't happen to anyone else.

Don't hold your breath on that complaint to the LGA - they have won TWO Casinomeister awards for their service, but not the kind anyone would be proud to display

A formal PAB here would be a better course of action. This is how to get this incident properly looked at, and evidence gathered for possible inclusion in the rogue pit.

This is very much like Westland Bowl vs Heroes casino from a while back. They claimed his winnings were void because he had used a "system" to beat the randomness of the game. We thought it was bullshit, Max and Bryan (Casinomeister) agreed, and so did the software provider for Heroes casino, who yanked their license for bringing the product into disrepute by suggesting the software was beatable through using a "system" - something that could not happen with properly randomised software.

This incident suggests Playtech software is not random, and that systems can beat the odds at the Blackjack tables. Normally, the accusation is that the Blackjack is rigged so that the player loses far more than they should, so I am surprised Playtech are letting it go unchallenged when an operator more or less admits this is true by suggesting that the "right system" can overcome this "rigging" and allow the player to WIN more than they are supposed to.

Bryan has very strong views about these "systems", and will not take kindly to operators giving them a shred of credibilty through actions such as this.

Even if you DID use a top of the range Blackjack system, it could not have worked at online blackjack because the virtual deck is shuffled at the start of each hand, and each card is randomly dealt from the freshly shuffled deck. With this setup, the house edge will prevail, and no system can alter this.

You had nothing more than a lucky streak, and not even a perticularly remarkable one at that. You were betting 200 per hand, and won 7000. This is ONLY a 35 unit gain with level stakes, and far from being unusual, it is PERFECTLY NORMAL to have such swings either way.

What if you had LOST 7000 through level betting at 200, and been DOWN 35 units. Would this prove the game was rigged - the casino clearly believe such an event is statistically significant enough to prove the theory being tested. This is not just bullshit, it's M & S bullshit

The ONLY way this operator can avoid becoming a laughing stock is to cook up a different excuse for not paying you, but this will NOT save it in the longer term, as it will simply shift their reputation to one of habitual lying in order to avoid paying players, and the ultimate destination will be the same, even if the route chosen is different.

There is a chance now that a rep from this outfit will appear here in an attempt to defend this decision, and we will tell him/her that systems just don't work online, and that he/she is in the wrong business if they believe they do.

Far from banning you, "other casinos" will give you the ROYAL treatment if you come in with a 7000 wad and a "foolproof system" for taking their money that you have so much faith in you will NEVER quit, no matter how much the short term losses.

Playtech won't care about this either, they didn't care when an operator stole CAD$ 2 Million from a player, so they are not going to bat an eyelid over £7000.

It is stupidity such as this, and the fact that Playtech look the other way when licensees behave like this, that I give Playtech such a hard time on this forum.

If the LGA ignore you, get your MP involved. It is time the government were made more aware of the loopholes in the current system that are allowing bad operators to get away with acts that would be illegal for any other EU based business trading with UK citizens.

[zaaaaabaaaaam]

Online casinos CANNOT be beaten by ANY Blackjack system because EVERY hand is dealt from a new "virtual deck", and keeping a tally of past hands does NOT make any difference.

While above is sort of true i would insist that you can beat the casino with a bonus. Take a 100% sign up bonus which has x in wagering, going to a table where you can bet the whole bonus or both deposit and bonus in one hand would mean you only risk the bonus money or your deposit to win twice as much. With that leverage you can beat the casino (depending on the wagering requirement obviously)