Grand Duke Not Paying £7200 BJ Winnings Due to 'System'!

[Temperance Fox]

Yesterday, in the evening, I just had a call from them, asking me why I joined and never played.That's true.I was busy , then I gave some money to an "old" frend of mine to try this casino, cause she knows the playtech platform better than I.I remember we lost every time and she said they're not clear about rules and answers , She also told me had the sensation to play in a strange place...don't remember exactly (maybe I've alredy written this, somewhere?)
So I have told every thing to that customer and also that I'm not intentioned to make any deposit there and these are the answer....

- we are a young casino and are very happy to hear your opinions
- I'm writing down all your complains so to do our service better
- if you deposit now I'll give you a 250% upon your deposit

That's all.
I find this kind of warning very useful
Thanks

[vinylweatherman]

I've just been clearing out my spam folder, and found TWO spam mailers for Grand Duke from "Global Affiliates" as the sender. I then noticed further mailers from this same sender, and the format of each was EXACTLY the same as for Grand Duke, other than the fact that the name Grand Duke had been substituted with "Party Casino".

I then found a third, exact same format again, but this time for GoWild. It looks like Grand Duke have allowed this spammer to sign up for their program, and spam away. GoWild seem to have let this rogue affiliate slip through as well.

Although it looked at first like Party Casino was a sister, the GoWild mailer proves otherwise. It's just a big spamming outfit doing all three, as I would expect sister casinos to be other Playtechs, and certainly not Microgaming.

It might rest on finding out who the parent company of Integra is, and whether it has spawned other operating subsidiaries that operate casinos.

[Simmo!]

Out of interest, was there any contact with Playtech. Would be interesting to know what their official line is on systems affecting the outcome of their games.

Also, the regulatory authority...by upholding the casino complaint, they are effectively saying they believe that systems can affect the outcome of the Playtech Blackjack? So why do they give licences to companies on Playtech sofwtare if they believe t's rigged?

They've decided to stick to their guns, and to not comment any further (which is their prerogative).

Rogued:
http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/grandduke.php

Edited to add: any casino manager who claims that systems work and confiscates players' winnings because they "believe" a system has been used does not belong in the business.

They need to take a course in Casino Management 101 and do some research on systems. There is some reference material located on the Rogue page.

[chayton]

Out of interest, was there any contact with Playtech. Would be interesting to know what their official line is on systems affecting the outcome of their games.

Curious about this too - although Playtech has never (to my knowledge) stepped in whenever there's a rogue operator or under any circumstances where players get ripped off - basically it seems like they don't really care what the operators get up to as long as they're collecting their licensing fee. It might be different if there actually is a 'system' that works, but again - it would only affect the operators so why would they even care?

Or maybe I'm just cynical.

[vinylweatherman]

Curious about this too - although Playtech has never (to my knowledge) stepped in whenever there's a rogue operator or under any circumstances where players get ripped off - basically it seems like they don't really care what the operators get up to as long as they're collecting their licensing fee. It might be different if there actually is a 'system' that works, but again - it would only affect the operators so why would they even care?

Or maybe I'm just cynical.

Playtech didn't care when a number of players got screwed out of MILLIONS over progressive payouts. They didn't even care that the rogue operators then KEPT those progressive pools they confiscated, thus looking the other way when ALL their players were ripped off through having their progressive contribitions pocketed by one operator as profit.

They are NOT going to care about a player being ripped off for 7K. They also don't care about the strange excuses used, even when they bring the fairness of the software into question.

If players don't trust that the software is fair, Playtech only have themselves to blame by allowing statements by operators that show they believe the software can be easily manipulated by "pattern play" to stand uncontested.

Galewind, a much smaller software company, took a different view when one of their operators confiscated a payout because the player had used "pattern play" to "overwhelm the RNG" and thus "force" the game to operate at +EV.

This sent a clear message to other Galewind operators that they had better not try the same excuse on their players, or they could find themselves looking for another software provider.

A recent ruling by the GRA suggests that some licensing authorities will allow license holders to use any excuse they want to confiscate winnings where players don't play "in the spirit" in which some kind of promotion has been offered, even though all the explicit rules and restrictions have been followed.

Grand Duke probably invented this excuse because they hadn't been robust enough in constructing the bonus terms, and crucially didn't include a max betsize as percentage of bankroll rule.

[Jinn]

It seems the VP of Operations for Grand Duke has posted on the GPWA forum about this, saying that CM made no attempt to contact them before being rogued :

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/interestin...ke-198980.html

[Redbush54]

Quite interesting......this is posted by Integra at the gpwa here.

"I'm sure we will talk to CM soon and find a resolution to the situation. With that being said, judgements have been made quickly, no attempt to contact us has been made, and I wouldn't allow myself to use the word "abusive" about a player if there wasn't enough information to back it up."

[ergopro]

They labeled me a serious bonus abuser without any reason. Didn't even get a chance to deposit.
Them saying they have enough material to back the accusations up would probably mean Playtech's network wide bonus ban/ listings...sorry, Integra, probably a false positive cause those Playtech listings are total bs.

[Casinomeister]

It seems the VP of Operations for Grand Duke has posted on the GPWA forum about this, saying that CM made no attempt to contact them before being rogued :

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/interestin...ke-198980.html

I guess there are two Grand Duke Casinos. My apologies

Dear Mr. Max Drayman,

Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, we are not able to divulge any customers' account specific
information. Rest assured that we are acknowledging this matter with the
casino account owner.

Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact
the Grand Duke Casino Support Team. We are available 24 Hours a day, 7 days a week.

Sincerely,

Grand Duke Casino

We followed up on this, and received the following response:

Hi Max Drayman,

This is Cola from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

Your previous email was already forwarded to the Casino Management for proper
assistance.

Rest assured that you will be notified once we receive further feedback.

In the meantime, we ask for your patience.

Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact
the Grand Duke Casino Support Team. We are available 24 Hours a day, 7 days a
week.

Sincerely,

Grand Duke Casino

.

These are stall tactics - they are fully aware of the issue. They were swiftly placed into the rogue section primarily because the excuse they used to confiscate winnings is totally bogus. Players need to be warned immediately when a casino pulls a stunt like this. Obviously the casino is more worried about their affiliate relations - this is the reason they are busy posting over at the GPWA and not here. I think it was mentioned in this thread that they were already aware of this issue, so their response to the player should have already been prepared (I would have thought so at least). They also could have signed up in this forum and entered into the debate about BJ systems, but they chose not to.

I'll be contacting Playtech this week to get their input on how BJ systems affect the outcome of their software. That should prove to be interesting.

[vinylweatherman]

They labeled me a serious bonus abuser without any reason. Didn't even get a chance to deposit.
Them saying they have enough material to back the accusations up would probably mean Playtech's network wide bonus ban/ listings...sorry, Integra, probably a false positive cause those Playtech listings are total bs.

Well, this is interesting in itself. This is a NEW casino, and has no sister sites. They MUST have received this information from a "Playtech bonus abuser blacklist", there is no other logical explanation.

Playtech have always denied the existence of any such blacklist, but the language they have used is slightly vague in that they don't say no such list exists, but that "Playtech do not operate such a blacklist", leaving open the possibilty that a subsidiary organisation has been created to operate such a list "at arm's length" from Playtech, so that Playtech have "deniabilty" when accused of operating an "abuser" list that shares information between all Playtech operators.

I would speculate that this list is operated by the same outfit in the Phillipines that every player who is placed under extra scrutiny is asked to "post notarised copies of...." to. It seems everyone assumed these were Playtech's own offices, but it turns out this company is "nothing to do with Playtech" other than it provides "security" services for all Playtech operated casinos.

The rep has decided to LIBEL Max & Bryan over at GPWA by trying to make it seem that Bryan rogued them without allowing them any opportunty to put their side to him.

This may have been as a result of a number of webmasters over at GPWA posting that they have decided to pull their Grand Duke banners over this issue, something that started when the bogus "system" excuse was revealed, and BEFORE the roguing.

They have also libeled the OP by stating that this was an "abusive player" they were dealing with, and implying that they have lied here in order to get Bryan to rogue the casino.

Unfortunately, their choice of excuse cannot be denied, and this has not entirely worked for them, even at the GPWA.

Webmasters are STILL saying that despite what the operator is saying, the fact that they used this "system" argument over online Blackjack to void winnings, rather than a "spirit of bonus" or "abuse" argument, means that they are STILL concerned that players they refer will suffer similar treatment if they just happen to hit a lucky streak, and clearly they don't want their websites to suffer a bad rep for promoting the casino.

Grand Duke are being challenged to disclose the REAL reason behind this decision, but if they do this in order to appease the webmasters, they will have to admit that they LIED to the player in the first place, and it was merely a case of "didn't want to pay" an unusually lucky player so early on, and before they had made enough money from them.

This may just turn out to be a badly designed promo (they are new), and they are trying to limit the cost of their poor planning by finding reasons not to pay players, rather than because they are aware that the software is vulnerable to "systems".