irregular play ???? just registered! 7 sultans!

[maxd]

It seems the bullshit was actually BELIEVED [by] staff all the way from CS to floor management, and even the "player security company" fully believed that play WITHOUT a bonus was subject to the SAME restrictions as bonus play.

It may "seem" that way VWM but that doesn't make it so.

In fact the strongest voice of opposition to the actions taken by the casino came from within the casino administration itself. Doubtless we added a little fuel to the fire but if it wasn't for those internal efforts we might be talking about a mini-Betfair here as opposed to being thankful that the player's issue got squared away as it did.

And I shouldn't make too much of the "ELEVEN DAYS" if I were you. That's not an outrageous period of time for a management mistake of this magnitude to be identified, isolated, articulated, debated and corrected. If you've ever worked within a large corporate environment you will know that generally speaking paint ages faster than major corrections of this nature seeing the light of day.

My point is that this isn't a particularly well justified occasion to break out the torches and start a witch hunt. No doubt the player was victim of a grievous lapse of judgment but the process and time frame in which it was isolated and made right is cause for hope, not panic, IMO. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.

[vinylweatherman]

It may "seem" that way VWM but that doesn't make it so.

In fact the strongest voice of opposition to the actions taken by the casino came from within the casino administration itself. Doubtless we added a little fuel to the fire but if it wasn't for those internal efforts we might be talking about a mini-Betfair here as opposed to being thankful that the player's issue got squared away as it did.

And I shouldn't make too much of the "ELEVEN DAYS" if I were you. That's not an outrageous period of time for a management mistake of this magnitude to be identified, isolated, articulated, debated and corrected. If you've ever worked within a large corporate environment you will know that generally speaking paint ages faster than major corrections of this nature seeing the light of day.

My point is that this isn't a particularly well justified occasion to break out the torches and start a witch hunt. No doubt the player was victim of a grievous lapse of judgment but the process and time frame in which it was isolated and made right is cause for hope, not panic, IMO. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.

Maybe if people had actually WORKED AS A TEAM within FL, this would have been fixed sooner. If opposition to this was coming from INSIDE the casino, just WHO wasn't listening, nor engaging their "common sense circuits".

I might expect this level of incompetence at a white label, or rogue casino, but when this happens in respected operations like FL, how can players be confident that there is ANY casino that can be trusted to be fair.

This doesn't look like a mistake, but a POLICY CHANGE that has had the effect of embarrassing higher management into doing a U-turn ONLY because of the negative publicity generated, as well as pressure from within and from the PAB.

Players don't see all the internal workings, they only see what's on the outside, which is an insane application of a rule, followed by a refusal to listen to reason.

Unlike other businesses, there is no regulator to "slap down" incompetence like this as there is when our energy companies and banks make similar corporate blunders. The lack of such a formal "slap down" means there is less of an incentive to reverse bad decisions before they detonate in their corporate faces.

This was such a GROSS error that I find it hard to believe even a TRAINEE could have made such a screw-up. It is quite astonishing that their grasp of casino mathematics is so poor, given that it is their JOB to know how games and promotions work.
Management should also have known that arguments like this challenge the basic assumptions that the games are fair and random, and players are quick to spot such discrepancies, and a few to cite decisions of this nature as "proof" that the random games CAN be beaten, and this is the "punishment" meeted out to players that exploit the "patterns" in the random outcomes. Heroes themselves said that the player "exploited patterns" in the Blackjack game to unfairly win a significant amount, which damaged the integrity of the software to such an extent that the provider yanked their license, and paid the player out of their own pocket.

There needs to be some kind of "incentive" to ensure that no other casino will DARE try this kind of argument again, claiming that players can "abuse" a game unfairly WITHOUT taking a bonus.

There have already been some ROGUE casinos that have tried this (notably Heroes Casino), but this has to be the first ACCREDITED casino to come up with this argument.

[Da_Gambla]

I'm not here for a witch hunt. I'm here now because I find the explanation by the casino unacceptably glib.

There was no confusion over these terms. What casino even has exclusionary terms when you're playing with your own money? If there's no 'terms' attached to playing on your own dime, and it's verified you didn't take any bonus, what exactly happened over 11 days? It's acceptable to spend some days looking at the player history because of a possible bonus issue, but that was nixed very early on.

It's ridiculous. And, nothing's changed, since there wasn't much of a misunderstanding to begin with. How do you change or re-word terms that weren't there to begin with?

- Keith

[binshakindown]

Mistakes happen, to be sure. Count me among those that are seriously questioning this as a mistake. Let's travel back and analyze this:



Player is aware of an 'irregular play' accusation.



Player informs forum members that a bonus is not an issue here.



FIRST ERROR: Email support informs him he broke a condition bound to bonus play, and apparently have either not checked his actual deposits and bonuses, or are intentionally ignoring them.



ERROR #2: CS chat confirms no bonus in play, but now claims the same T&C's hold true for non-bonus play. Forum members are quite distracted by this revelation.

ERROR #3: Player phones up UK help desk, and is again affirmed that these terms apply to regular play.

At this point, everyone is in agreement that there is no bonus issue.



ERROR #4: Company now quoting bogus or impossible to contact entity



ERROR #5: Player contacts company to try and find out how to take his case to entity known as 'player security company'. Company affirms they are impossible to contact or argue to directly.



Wim in da house! Surely this will be sorted now! Unfortunately, Rep does not CONFIRM that there is no bonus at play here.



ERROR #6: Please keep in mind that everybody is on board that no bonus is at issue here, except still no Rep confirmation of this fact. Player is apparently now told that some sort of 'red/black' sequences got his funds confiscated.

HUH? We should add about 3 or 4 errors onto the number at this point, because that's an absurd response. It's so absurd, the forum membership starts readying some rope for the OP, since the rep is refusing to answer whether a bonus was at issue or not, and so OP starts looking like he might be lying (reference to Dwind).



And FINALLY, 11 days later, after untold CS chats, phone calls, Rep PM's, and finally a PAB, player gets paid.

That's really a LOT of mistakes, and really a lot of points in time where a mistake could have been easily caught. Even after the player informed them that he didn't take a bonus, they started going in directions that had nothing to do with a bonus, then finally pay him because all of the BS they fed him was completely false.

I would have to think this would have a tremendous impact on something called 'confidence' in this casino. No bueno.

- Keith

IMO, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for taking the time to detail it out.

[Da_Gambla]

IMO, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for taking the time to detail it out.

yeah, thanks mate. I just thought an awful lot of details had been kind of forgotten over 11 days. Now the casino rep comes out and says "oh there's been a gross misinterpretation, player was paid, cheers", and that's it.

- Keith

[Gret]

Not sure what the point is continuing a debate about what happened..in fact, I'm still a little confused about exactly what occurred...but that is always the case.



If the casino made a mistake, they did a stand up thing and corrected it, relatively quickly in my mind. Stuff happens and I admired what they did and have more respect for them than the numbnuts at Rushmore.



Constantly looking for the dark side of people or organizations will set you free, because we all can find them. They exist in all of us. Finding the positives is a little harder, but much more rewarding.

[vinylweatherman]

yeah, thanks mate. I just thought an awful lot of details had been kind of forgotten over 11 days. Now the casino rep comes out and says "oh there's been a gross misinterpretation, player was paid, cheers", and that's it.

- Keith

I hope the casino is getting the message that this most certainly is NOT "it", and may well not be "it" until someone sticks a fork in this thread.

Some of us have better memories than elephants, and even when an issue is years old, it is STILL remembered by at least SOME of us, and we will not hesitate to remind casinos that seem to be drifting back into their earlier bad habits. Hopefully, the good casinos will heed such reminders, and ensure that major mistakes are not repeated, as well as learn from the mistakes of other operators, so as not to fall into the same trap.

As players, we also learn from the mistakes of others, so should NOT be making the same mistakes ourselves.

The OP seems to have learned that if they want to play Roulette, then DON'T take a bonus, especially the new player one. This did NOT help him this time, and it was quite a struggle to get a fair resolution.

From this, we can learn that many casinos do NOT have staff with the necessary levels of understanding and common sense running the show, and that if we feel we have been "screwed over" we should fight on for as long as it takes, rather than just accept that they are right, and we are wrong.

[Da_Gambla]

Not sure what the point is continuing a debate about what happened..in fact, I'm still a little confused about exactly what occurred...but that is always the case.



If the casino made a mistake, they did a stand up thing and corrected it, relatively quickly in my mind. Stuff happens and I admired what they did and have more respect for them than the numbnuts at Rushmore.



Constantly looking for the dark side of people or organizations will set you free, because we all can find them. They exist in all of us. Finding the positives is a little harder, but much more rewarding.

The positive is noted, and of course it was the right thing. What's simply being asked is, what occurred internally that defines 'gross misunderstanding', and a clarification of how another instance of this sort won't end up another PAB? At this point, the term 'gross misunderstanding' is left to interpretation, since it's vague and rife with speculation. This impacts the casino in the trust department, and then might impact them in the deposit department. We're all for casinos making good, but understanding how this will be avoided in the future is also important for those who have memories around here, and might be offering guidance should someone post for a recommendation.

They can leave it vague if they want to, but the next incident that's posted about this casino about ANYTHING will be advantage: poster.

- Keith

[maxd]

Not that it's going to make much of a difference to those that have already made up their minds about how they want to feel about this but I thought a few facts and an alternate view or two might illuminate the situation a little:

• it took about seven (7) working days for this thing to manifest then right itself. You'd have to be pretty picky to say that is an unreasonable turn-around on something like this.
• contrary to several people's assumptions the company has taken steps to make it very clear to their people that this was an unacceptable error: at least two levels in the chain of command have been reprimanded for misconduct. That may not make anyone's day any brighter but in corporate life that's how these things go.
• the company also conducted an internal audit to see if other "even bet" rulings had slipped through. One had and they've taken action to clear that one up too (in other words pay that player too).

There's been talk of punitive "incentives" to help ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. As mentioned, within the organization this has been taken care of. Outside the organisation you're not going to see much because that's not how these things work.

As Gret suggested above, you're far better off providing a positive incentive when a job is (finally) done properly than telling folks how shit they are that it happened in the first place. Doing so is more about someone's need to seek revenge (or whatever) than any forward-looking goals they may think they are advocating.

Further speculation on what happened within the organisation is pretty much fruitless: we'll never know EXACTLY what happened, largely because it's none of our business. If we're talking about the real world here then any reasonable person has to see that this is internal corporate stuff and the doors on such things are not open for public viewing. If that's what you really want to rail against then fill your boots but you are wasting your time and ours.

And, finally, this from the rep:

Every one of our websites has an e-mail link for unresolved issues.
These mails route directly to the Floor Managers with a copy to me and
they receive priority attention. Any player who uses this facility
(which was specifically created to give players an escalation avenue)
will receive personal and instant attention.

Hopefully the above will be of interest to some. If not, fair enough, to each their own.

[Da_Gambla]

Not that it's going to make much of a difference to those that have already made up their minds about how they want to feel about this but I thought a few facts and an alternate view or two might illuminate the situation a little:

• it took about seven (7) working days for this thing to manifest then right itself. You'd have to be pretty picky to say that is an unreasonable turn-around on something like this.
• contrary to several people's assumptions the company has taken steps to make it very clear to their people that this was an unacceptable error: at least two levels in the chain of command have been reprimanded for misconduct. That may not make anyone's day any brighter but in corporate life that's how these things go.
• the company also conducted an internal audit to see if other "even bet" rulings had slipped through. One had and they've taken action to clear that one up too (in other words pay that player too).

There's been talk of punitive "incentives" to help ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. As mentioned, within the organization this has been taken care of. Outside the organisation you're not going to see much because that's not how these things work.

As Gret suggested above, you're far better off providing a positive incentive when a job is (finally) done properly than telling folks how shit they are that it happened in the first place. Doing so is more about someone's need to seek revenge (or whatever) than any forward-looking goals they may think they are advocating.

Further speculation on what happened within the organisation is pretty much fruitless: we'll never know EXACTLY what happened, largely because it's none of our business. If we're talking about the real world here then any reasonable person has to see that this is internal corporate stuff and the doors on such things are not open for public viewing. If that's what you really want to rail against then fill your boots but you are wasting your time and ours.

And, finally, this from the rep:


Hopefully the above will be of interest to some. If not, fair enough, to each their own.

Thank you, Max. I am noting the frustration in your words. This post had MUCH more information that any in the past, and I certainly feel these steps are valid. As I stated, if another poster signs up here with a problem from this casino, and this portion was left unresolved, there would be problems right up front... probably links to this thread provided.

We don't need to know EXACTLY anything. We just wanted to know something more than 'gross misunderstanding', and what that meant to them. You've given us that, thanks. I especially note the internal audit, that's a definite confidence boost.

I don't relish casino lynchings, Max. The info requested was not to meddle, but rather arm myself with a historical accounting of THIS instance, so I can be better informed if/when a NEW occurrence happens.

No disrespect, mate. I just wanted a few facts for the memory banks.

Thanks.

- Keith