InterCasino Incident - What is your opinion? (warning: REALLY long)

[DiamondGeezer]

I must admit I think JHV does have a very strong moral case even if Intercasino are most likely correct legally speaking.

But surely this is not about who is right under the letter of the law but the essence of the customer to casino relationship. The player was a real high roller who seems to have played in good faith. He's done one spin at the wrong coin size by accident and it's cost him a huge sum in winnings.

I think it's about time we heard something from Inter. Is this the way they treat high rollers? Don't they feel they have any obligation to 'take care' of this player and keep him as a customer? It does seem baffling that they don't appear to be that interested.

Where is Ryan Hartley? Does he infact even exist? Or is it just a managerial name on the emails? Are there infact many 'Ryan Hartleys?'

If the facts are as the player has put them I would be seething and cheesed off.

[WagerWitch]

JHV has a moral point exactly.

He continued spending (wagering) with the belief that he would be provided the monetary compensation provided his records proved his truth.

His truth was that he had literally thousands and thousands of dollars of bets where he NEVER varied from max bet.

Because the casino software stopped communicating - it reset.

When it reset - THIS TIME - it reset to the lowest amount - and MIRACULOUSLY it won.

I say - if it never usually reset to the lower amount - during a system communication problem - then it shouldn't have THIS TIME.

Yet - still - sure, it's the player's fault for not paying attention.

But we ALL have had an issue like that - and we know how we feel when we come back in and it's at the highest bet like a 2.00 one when we mean to be playing 20 cents a spin.

That's not even the problem.

In fact - IF the casino had said - Oh - we're sorry sir that you messed up - here's a 5,000 comp. Hope that makes you feel better - unfortunately as you know - you SHOULD be looking at the button amount - BEFORE YOU PLAY - EACH HAND...

Then ALL would be fine.

He would have had a little hissy fit - and life would have been grand... But he would have made the decision RIGHT THEN AND THERE to either KEEP Playing or to STOP.

But... and here is where the situation becomes the burden of the casino.

THEY basically gave him the go ahead and to just hang out while they figured it out - and then FIXED it.

Which meant: Keep playing - we'll give you back this amount if we find what you said is true.


So la la la la la oblivious to the possibility that the casino would NOT do a darned thing about it - subject gleefully spent his winnings in the expectation that there would be something else there.

now - Ignore - the you can't withdraw it all at once - because we want you to possibly spend it all back and not cash it out clause that casinos seem to have right now... which in my opinion is wrong wrong wrong --- FLUSH the amount - pay it back in weekly payments - but FLUSH the amount.

Make it unavailable to the player. Cause ALL players will play it back.


So ---- Casino takes lots of time - and makes decision: Too bad so sad...

(Which they had the right to do... but it was really kind of rude... cause the logs were obvious - and YES... the casino DID glitch - which it does do - and the player was ALWAYS playing max bet...)

Anyhow - so player was KIND of "duped"...

Or "set-up" so to speak - to lose it all back.


In my opinion - I agree with JHV - bad casino practice.

Not because it wasn't true that player needs to watch the betting amount...

But because they had the player continue playing with the expectation that they would DO something to "make the situation right" - which to me... means... plainly - that they would have given him at least SOME return back - if not all of the return back.

That is just my opinion - from reading JHV's information.

It isn't whether the casino is at fault for the software glitch issue.....

It's what the casino promised between the lines in the waiting time.

Yanno?

Anyhow - just thought I would put my 100 cents in.

Ps. JHV - dude - seriously camping is where it's at...

We had a tree fall on our tent in the middle of the night - LMAO - destroyed our tent... (I have pictures... LOL!) But I will say this - never felt so lucky to be alive.

[thelawnet]

JHV has a moral point exactly.

He continued spending (wagering) with the belief that he would be provided the monetary compensation provided his records proved his truth.

His truth was that he had literally thousands and thousands of dollars of bets where he NEVER varied from max bet.

Because the casino software stopped communicating - it reset.

When it reset - THIS TIME - it reset to the lowest amount - and MIRACULOUSLY it won.

I say - if it never usually reset to the lower amount - during a system communication problem - then it shouldn't have THIS TIME.

Actually it didn't stop communicating, the player left it for hours, and as a result the software disconnected for security/resource reasons.

I'd gone off to watch a Formula 1 race for a few hours (go RBR!) and, when I returned, my FIRST SPIN back I hit pat quads on 50 Line - $25,000 - thank you very much! However, my balance didn't go up - tired and drunk, I was massively confused trying to work out why until I notice the coin value is at 5c and not $5.

There are two different things to distinguish here:

1: going away mid-bet (e.g., between dealing and drawing) and having the software time out, or getting disconnected from the internet mid-bet
2: leaving the software, either by quitting, or just leaving it with no bet active.

Case 1, your bet is restored when you reconnect, and the bet size stays the same.

Case 2, the bet size is reset to the default.

Case 2 is what happened here. Pretty much all casino software will disconnect you if you leave it for a long time, and the bet size reset is not an unpredictable thing, even if the UI is not that great.

[big_mac]

But because they had the player continue playing with the expectation that they would DO something to "make the situation right" - which to me... means... plainly - that they would have given him at least SOME return back - if not all of the return back.

We have been told that they did offer 30% ($7500) in no-deposit bonuses, with playthrough attached.

They may have been waiting for the logs before deciding what bonuses to offer as compensation - they didn't promise a full payout, and I am surprised that anyone would reasonably *expect* them to.

[WagerWitch]

Point missed guys.

Explanation:

1) Player comes back to reset game at lower price after having played 6 MILLION DOLLARS worth of play thru.

(key words here 6 MILLION DOLLARS)

Balance was above ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.

2) Player has been playing for DAYS at MAX bet - NEVER once varying from MAX bet.

3) Player doesn't pay attention and plays at 5 CENT level ONE time - which happens to win (miraculously).

4) Player contacts casino management - he is confused as to why he has MIN bet all of a sudden.

HERE IS WHERE THE CASINO MADE THE ERROR.

Yes. It is Player's fault for NOT checking the bet amount.

HOWEVER - Player has over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS in account.

Casino is NOT obligated to offer ANY compensation.

Player is told - "we have to check the logs"

Not: "Sorry - you should have checked the amount before pushing the button."

This means to me: We have to check the logs to see if you're right and if there is a glitch we will compensate you.

AND PLAYER KNOWS LOGS WILL PROVE HE HAS NEVER BET BELOW MAX BET EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE TIME

So Player expects to be Compensated because he has been told - "we have to check the logs and we'll get back to you."

VERY fine line here folks.

The casino left the player with the impression that they were going to be doing something - OVER A PERIOD OF TIME... Leaving the player with the thought that something could be done or was going to be done.

They waited a very LONG time to let the player know that they would not be giving the max bet winnings.

NOW:

1) Casino doesn't allow player to withdraw all winnings. Setting a 10,000 cap.

2) Player plays down all winnings in a spiraling Loss... which we all know is what happens - but when we're doing it - we are all hoping it will go back up.

3) Casino says Oh - because of this problem - we are inviting you by pulling strings to our VIP world.

(uhm - if SIX MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF TURNOVER is not already VIP - then dudes - there are NO VIPS in this world.)

4) Casino throws in some wagering required bonuses of measly amounts of a few thousand dollars.


I say this is not ILLEGAL - nor did the CASINO do anything TRULY WRONG.

THE casino allowed the player to perceive that they would be doing something "GOOD" for him - if he just waited.

And we ALL know casinos don't want to give away money.

I mean - yeah - enough to keep folks coming back - but really.... They'd like to keep it all.

And well - right now - there isn't ANYTHING to stop them from treating players like stupid sheep.

His only option was to quit playing there - and letting everyone know how someone who does SIX MILLION DOLLARS in TURNOVER in such a short time is treated.

In my opinion - while the casino was under NO obligation to pay him for that win.... They should have.

Just on the pure CUSTOMER SERVICE PRINCIPAL.

Or they should have let him know IMMEDIATELY that they would NEVER do anything about it - and that he COULD close his account, pitch a hissy fit - or do whatever - but that they would give him his entire funds immediately.

Instead - they made it next to impossible for this player to cash out.

It was all a PLOY.

And it was done with NO INTENTION of ever compensating the player - but instead - to hope the player would play ALL of those ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAR winnings in his current balance.

And that is where they were wrong.

Not that they did or did not compensate him...

That they left him out to dry on a smoke and mirror assumption of a possible "FIX".

To lose his funding with expectations - instead of the honest truth - letting him dwindle down in frustration.

I say that This Casino KNOWS the Addiction of Gambling well - and played this Player with less Morals than a Massive Drug Dealer... And they used the psychology of that addiction to relieve this player of the rest of the ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS that he had in his account.

Personally - I think they played him.

(and yes - he took it, hook, line and sinker)

But that type of activity should not be allowed in casinos.

You don't have to agree with me.

To me - it's a MORAL Wrong - and not a Lawful wrong.

But I believe - after reading the information in this thread and NOT having the other side to view... that this player was purposefully played.

And I will continue to think so - unless new info comes to light.

[4 of a kind]

Point missed guys.

Explanation:

2) Player plays down all winnings in a spiraling Loss... [I]which we all know is what happens - but when we're doing it - we are all hoping it will go back up.[/I

I say that This Casino KNOWS the Addiction of Gambling well - and played this Player with less Morals than a Massive Drug Dealer...

Looking at this from the casinos side:

1) It's an online casino, NOT A LIVE billion dollar operation in Vegas. Loyalty especially at this level of play online is not common and irregular.

2) Players of this caliber usually come and go, and although not sure of his total cash value; to be playing like this online they know there not dealing with a clear head, nor does this type of play have a long shelve life online.

3) Could just be a degenerate gambler at the bottom of his bankroll playing desperate and could become dangerous for our site if he gets lucky.

4) Lets slow play him cause he looks like hes capable of giving us our money back.

5) Player delivers as expected.

6) Casino certainly don't want to reload risky player with 6 figures, with risk of getting lucky or cashing out.

7) Player pissed about offer, and demonstrates aggressive response.

8) Legally covered... Have a nice day, player problem closed... GET LOST

At the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City, Donald hat a Sheik playing every seat of a BJ game for 100K per hand. After the first day the Sheik was up 6 million dollars. After the second day the Sheik lost it all back plus 2 million. On the third day the Donald would not let him play any longer with those limits. The Sheik made a splash about it, obviously all the papers here on the east coast wrote all about the incident. He swore never to play at any of Trumps property's again.

This incident will come and go for them, with only the people that know are the people that know about it. And for the amount of deposits they may lose as a result of this incident before it goes away, would take an awful lot of $50.00 and $100.00 deposits to ever have a negative effect on them.

Its only about the money at this level. From a business point of view this online casino did a hell of a job.

[thelawnet]

Personally - I think they played him.

(and yes - he took it, hook, line and sinker)

But that type of activity should not be allowed in casinos.

You don't have to agree with me.

To me - it's a MORAL Wrong - and not a Lawful wrong.

But I believe - after reading the information in this thread and NOT having the other side to view... that this player was purposefully played.

And I will continue to think so - unless new info comes to light.

Maybe, but are you surprised? This is how casinos do business. Big casinos in Vegas will tell winning whales that the private jet needs a service, giving the VIPs a couple of days to lose back all the money. They ply every player with free alcohol because it makes them less inhibited and lose more money.

It's not illegal for them to do this, perhaps it's immoral, but it's just how things are. From what the player said, that $100k was PROFIT. The casino was losing badly.

At this point the player can just go away and wait for an answer. But he didn't, he continued to play, and, inevitably, lose. Without that kind of behaviour casinos would not be in business, but the behaviour comes not from the casino, but from the individual player. I've waited while casinos investigate plenty of times. I never play until I get an answer, why would I?

[Mouche12]

I am still of the opinion that Intercasino should have offered a fair amount of compensation to OP. I also understand that there were a few disconnections with the casino server, apart from the time that OP left the game for a few hours. Such disconnections are a terrible nuisance for players.

[jas2587]

I've actually shared the information, multiple times.

It's simply that the whole "crux" of the situation is not what you think it is. I'm saying my money was stolen in an unethical and immoral and 'possibly' illegal manner. That's the crux of the situation. You haven't even read the information provided - so why don't you go do that now. But first, I shall explain the little game I was just playing with you over the last few posts.

It's your obnoxious attitude clearly present from the tone in your first post I didn't like. I read people quickly. So I didn't answer your question, but I did so in a polite manner and with a flippant comment about "the past is the past"...had you asked something like "If you don't mind me asking....and I know it's not at all relevant to the issue at hand, but it might be of interest as a side-issue if you put yourself in the position of a cold, dirty casino manager with no other considerations about ethics or morals - all his decisions are made with zero emotion, he's a psychopath - he would be concerned with how much you'd won/deposited/blah blah. blah." - you might have received a different answer and a firm but polite acknowledgment that I'm not a an idiot and I understand these very simple level 1 concepts.

As I knew you would, because I read you perfectly from your first silly post - you VERY RUDELY asked again, ignoring the polite but clear dismissal of your direct and rude question.

Now, I was just playing with you a bit. I just had a read that you were a bit of a dick and wanted to test it - you'll note I tested my theory whilst remaining polite both times. I am quite flippant about how much I've lost, had you even bothered to read around a bit, you'd have a pretty good idea. But you didn't know this - you asked a question and received a classic polite "I'd rather not talk about it type of response" from the respondent.

Rather than respecting their clear stated wish that they didn't want to talk abut it, you push forward like a selfish and rude jerk after the person clearly stated they preferred not to think about it. You're despicable.

Again, I couldn't care less. I just wanted to toy with you, I continue playing my own private game - and give my best impression that I REALLY don't want to talk about it, that to do so would make me uncomfortable. And, of course, instead of apologising like a human being would, you show zero remorse for your disgustingly rude and obnoxious behaviour, and you attempt to give me a lesson in Logic 101 as if I was a stupid child that needed basic logic explained to me.

From this, I learned a few things:
a) You are either lazy or you can't read at average > better speed - or, you might even struggle with reading and don't like it at all (dyslexic, learning disorder, etc)
b) Had you read this entire thread, you would realise I hold very strong opinions as to "why" they did what they did. If you are wondering "why", you are a moron. If you think I am wondering "why", you are sorely mistaken.
c) That I don't like you because you lecture level 1 basic logic as if it's some wisdom you're handing down. If there's things I have said in my posts that have led you to believe that I am in some way requiring of someone to spell out Level 1 IDO logic to me, please point such things out to me - I would be genuinely interested in how I gave that impression.

But I'm pretty confident you have a aversion to reading - and we cannot converse because I have an aversion to brevity. We're doomed and can never be friends. I'm sorry - this hurts me more than it hurts you.

There are some people on this forum for whom your "ground-breaking" common-sense logic might wow them, but I am in not in that group.

Run along boy and I'd request not to post in any of my threads again or, if you are compelled to, please don't address your questions at me. I have no wish to converse with you again. And you'd do well to watch your manners in the future.....

Wether you are a "Whale" or not drunk or Sober you have no right to disrespect a forum member like you have in your last 4 or 5 post you are clearly IMO out of line
an I have noticed when you go off like this you have a tendacy to say that you was drunk No Excuse at all ever for pure rudeness "Whale" or not

Cindy

[JHV]

Now that I have dispensed with the Peanut Gallery, on to more serious business.

First point of order:

I believe the time has come to press InterCasino to respond in some way. I do not believe they should be allowed the right of "pleading the 5th" here. When I started this thread, I was actually completely unaware of how much I'd been (admittedly brilliantly [in an evil sense]) played like a banjo by InterCasino staff. I merely was shocked that they would steal my winnings in such a fashion. I now believe a far more serious breach of ethics has occurred - and although I can recognise the 'genius' in it, and accept that I was played like an idiot and behaved like a idiot (partly due to unfairly placed trust in InterCasino's reputation as an ethical operator)...it still angers me greatly, as I'm sure the (more sane) of you can appreciate.

I'm not a fan of "no comment" and I'm not a fan of "pleading the 5th". If you claim to conduct business in an ethical manner, and a customer provides an insanely compelling argument / allegation that you are conducting business in a manner not only unethical, but possibly illegal - you SHOULD respond. And I believe someone from InterCasino should be forced to respond here - Bryan, surely you agree?

I say "should be forced to respond" particularly because I see InterCasino banners on this site. I'm making fairly serious allegations here and their silence is deafening.

Second Point of Order:

Please do not refer to the token and very much insulting tiny piecemeal bonuses with corresponding wagering requirements attached as "compensation" of any kind. I did $20,000,000 or so wagering that week/fortnight at InterCasino and this week I got an email stating last month's VIP prize winner (who received a $2000 [?] bonus) did 4 mil wagering in July. I mean, come now - let's not be silly about this.

Referring to the chump change wagering requirements-attached piecemeal bonuses I received after they'd craftily busted me through deceit and lies as "compensation" is insulting in far worse ways than I initially considered them to be.

"Compensation" is not an accurate description and takes focus away from the more serious matter, which I was unaware of when starting this thread, but which has clearly and very intelligently been explained to me via PM.

Specifically, that every single aspect of InterCasino's conduct from the moment of the incident (and arguably even before the incident if you believe, as some do, that the unbelievably high number of server disconnects are not accidental, if you get the drift)....that every single aspect of their behaviour was planned strategy conducted with the express and clear aim to deceive me and frustrate me and annoy me and coerce me to continue to gamble as a result.

This includes the language used in the emails, the 2-3 days taken to get these "wagering logs", the refusal to let me cash out more than 10k, the promise (LIE) that I could cash out as much as I liked once I sent through scans (which I did, and the promise was very much a lie - they did not raise my 10k limit), the very decision NOT to pay me my rightful winnings on the spin -ALL OF THIS was a controlled plan to frustrate me and annoy me and stall for time. As we all know, a frustrated and annoyed gambler = profit for casino.

Third Point of Order:

The 6 figure balance was not all winnings, as some seem to still be confused about. I don't know how much I'd deposited in my InterCasino account prior to the event, but I would guess around $60,000? Something like that.

FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, it annoys me slightly when people refer to this as if it's a relevant issue. We're talking ethics here, not business nous.

We can also talk about how effective the Jewish ghettos were during WW2 in breaking their spirit and resolve whilst the forces of Evil were systematically conducting genocide. But that would be insulting and distasteful, would it not? I find talk of InterCasino's brilliance in lying to me and owning me during this affair similarly distasteful. Yes, they were brilliant. Yes, it's great business strategy - if you're a completely horrible, ruthless person who preys on human weakness. It's still distasteful and not relevant to the issue.

Had I deposited $10 and this situation occurred and subsequent treatment, I would be equally disgusted with InterCasino's behaviour.

Although my complete and utter ownership and crushing by InterCasino would suggest otherwise, the truth of the matter is I usually see all the angles. I just choose to live my life in a more honorable and ethical way. I could generate $10,000,000 in liquid cash within 3 months starting from this moment if I had zero ethics and I could do this with a relative ease that would surprise almost anyone who isn't involved in the complex world of MSNL / HSNL (such is my reputation within the online poker industry). But it would not make me a "genius businessman". It would make me the WORST kind of person. It would make me the villain. It would make me equivalent to InterCasino.

So please, can we stop discussing InterCasino's behaviour as being somehow "acceptable" (in a business sense).

Fourth (and last) Point of Order:

InterCasino recently launched a software upgrade for Video Poker. I then received an email telling me I had a $500 bonus for play during some past promotion. I tried out the new software with the bonus, which includes Auto-Hold feature (I believe InterCasino's refusal to push CryptoLogic for an Auto-Hold feature in their decade of operations was another example of their lack of ethics - most people missed it, including Bryan actually, but I clearly stated in my email to Ryan Hartley and posted here that I had literally cost myself thousands or tens of thousands of dollars through being used to play on Auto-Hold software on other casinos - I clearly stated the very evident truth that these errors were my mistake and that I never once complained about them. Bryan missed this clearly, when he posted later about taking responsibility for your actions - I could not agree with the concept of "personal responsibility" more...but my argument here is that I was effectively defrauded, and I provide proof that I DO take personal responsibility for my errors [even if they are due to a lack of a common game feature] - I simply don't take responsibility for an error where the blame clearly lies elsewhere).

Anyway, they've now brought in Auto-Hold feature.

If I have yet to convince you that InterCasino do not flirt with unethical behaviour, they literally bathe in it - you may be convinced by this following statement.

Their default Auto-Hold feature is so incorrect, it's almost criminal. One one of my first spins on Jacks or Better, the Auto-Hold feature held 4 to a OESD instead of a low pair.

That's 0.8237 (low pair) vs 0.6809 (4 to straight, no high cards).

14% "error" in the Auto-Hold - oh InterCasino...you're going to Hell, my friends. Say Hi to the Catholic Pope for me when you get there.