Casino Club closed account of €167'500 JACKPOT winner

[uungy]

Dear All,

I will try to give an answer to the many issues raised in this thread.

1. A player that was found to be, beyond any reasonable doubt, a fraudulent player, connected to a group of BOT and Bonus Abusers.
2. This player, and others connected to him, managed to "win" and withdraw considerable amounts of money from Casino Club during first half of 2008 (and earlier) through non-allowed gaming behavior.
3.Using money "won" in non-allowed gaming behavior, this player won a Jackpot in Casino Club.
4. Casino Club DOES NOT belong to the Boss Media Progressive circuit and therefore the amount of money won is an internal Casino Club issue.
5. At the same time period, a legal case was opened against this player, all related accounts closed pending a resolution of this case.
6. Likewise all money won in Jackpot is frozen pending resolution.
7. Casino Club is in constant contact with CM about this case.

I hope this answers all questions and doubts raised and quash all suspicions that Casino Club pockets JP money won by players (whether by lawful or unlawful ways).

Thanks for coming on board this matter

First you say the problem is Bot playing, then you say fraudlent. Bot is not fraudlent, it may be against the terms, but not "fraud".

Secondly, I havent seen any bonus in Casino Club which consider this as a dissallowed game, besides for the fact that the software automatically keeps in touch what clears the wager, so I dont understand what the issue is. the player had 30K in his account before winning, so how can all that be voided?

Thirdly whats happening to the jackpot? Its frozen, and who gets it?

[Casino Club]

Thanks for your posting Casino Club but the way you skirted so carefully round the issue you must know that your answer doesn't reassure everyone.

Simple question- If you decide that the player will not be paid, will the jackpot be returned to the jackpot pool?

Following the legal resolution of this case, Casino Club will return the money in question to the JP pool.

[thelawnet]

Dear All,

I will try to give an answer to the many issues raised in this thread.

1. A player that was found to be, beyond any reasonable doubt, a fraudulent player, connected to a group of BOT and Bonus Abusers.
2. This player, and others connected to him, managed to "win" and withdraw considerable amounts of money from Casino Club during first half of 2008 (and earlier) through non-allowed gaming behavior.
3.Using money "won" in non-allowed gaming behavior, this player won a Jackpot in Casino Club.
4. Casino Club DOES NOT belong to the Boss Media Progressive circuit and therefore the amount of money won is an internal Casino Club issue.
5. At the same time period, a legal case was opened against this player, all related accounts closed pending a resolution of this case.
6. Likewise all money won in Jackpot is frozen pending resolution.
7. Casino Club is in constant contact with CM about this case.

I hope this answers all questions and doubts raised and quash all suspicions that Casino Club pockets JP money won by players (whether by lawful or unlawful ways).

Well we've still to see the jackpot go back to the players, so that's far from clear yet.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'connected to a group of players'. Players do not come in groups. Online gambling is a highly solitary activity, you cannot do it in groups. People can discuss tactics, join forums, etc., but that's not in itself bad. Obviously multiple players can do bad things, and communicate those bad things to each other, but that doesn't change the case against any one of them - it is only that they as an individual have done something bad. If you are alleging that the same player is using multiple fake ids, that's a different thing, but it's not clear that you are.

Apart from that, 'bonus abuse' is not a meaningful term. Players must have broken some specific term of the casino that can be easily described.

Obviously your terms are clear NOW that players are not allowed to use bots, and are not allowed to make no-risk bets, and that would probably be sufficient grounds to confiscate winnings.

But you are talking about activity 'in the first half of 2008 and earlier'.

Per your terms at y/e 2007, there was no ban on bots:

http://web.archive.org/web/200712240...onditions.html

So I am not sure when this was added. It might be tricky in any case to prove that the new terms were adequately communicated to the players, in a court of law you'd have to show that the player was, or should reasonably have been, aware that the terms (and you acknowledge he was a long-time player).

I'm still quite confused about what this player's alleged wrongdoings are supposed to have been.

Presumably you have paid out some sum of money to this player, I guess thousands, of tens of thousands of euros, and you want to get them back, because you believe he did not gain them properly. If there is a legal case, you must have actual specific allegations, which would be a matter of public record in the court records. What are they?

I would appreciate it if the player would come here and clarify these matters about how much he has received in the past from Casino Club and what they have alleged.

On the issue of the jackpot being added back to the progressive pool, if the player is not going to be paid his winnings , it should be added back ASAP. The issue of the legal claim AGAINST the player is for PREVIOUS winnings, and this doesn't affect the issue of the jackpot being returned.

Of course if the player is going to be paid the jackpot, then that's a separate issue. But unless he is going to sue Casino Club (rather than the other way round) I don't see that that is going to happen?

I'm of course confused about why the player has done nothing in four months to get paid this very large amount of money.....

[Simmo!]

Well we've still to see the jackpot go back to the players, so that's far from clear yet.

Following the legal resolution of this case, Casino Club will return the money in question to the JP pool.

I'd say that was pretty clear.

On the issue of the jackpot being added back to the progressive pool, if the player is not going to be paid his winnings , it should be added back ASAP. The issue of the legal claim AGAINST the player is for PREVIOUS winnings, and this doesn't affect the issue of the jackpot being returned.

Surely the whole purpose of a legal case is to establish whether or not the player is due his winnings. I can't see how they can add it back until that is resolved.

[soflat]

It makes no sense.

Why would a casino allow a player to withdraw considerable amounts of money during the first half of 2008 (and earlier) if he/she won it using non-allowed gaming behaviour?

[Casinomeister]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'connected to a group of players'. Players do not come in groups.

Actually they do. Especially when it is a handful of players opening hundreds of accounts at once. This has happened at FL and Bellerock a number of times. I'm not saying this is the case here, but that is a typical m.o. of fraudsters. You're talking about normal activity. This is not normal.

On the issue of the jackpot being added back to the progressive pool, if the player is not going to be paid his winnings , it should be added back ASAP. The issue of the legal claim AGAINST the player is for PREVIOUS winnings, and this doesn't affect the issue of the jackpot being returned..

I believe the casino already answered this. It won't be released until the legal proceedings are finalized.

I'm of course confused about why the player has done nothing in four months to get paid this very large amount of money.....

Who knows? The player won't give them an address to send the legal docs to, and he won't contact the lawyers via email.

So in essence a standstill.

By the way, why aren't you answering my PMs?

[tofu23]

The bot saga proved that bots were being used. Not the other way around.

So I don't know exactly why, but CC is a "player fraud magnet". And that is worthy of discussion.

It was categorically established that was NO bot play. Why do you insist on re-writing history? There was no evidence of Bot play in the most recent Casino Club saga where the extended 8 hour++ play logs were publicly examined (unless you are referring to some other matter that has escaped my attention).

And why should Casino Club be a "player fraud magnet"? It makes no logical sense. ALL online casinos are equally likely to be exposed to organised fraud and will equally take appropriate measures.

But the fact is Casino Club considers Bot play fraud - the vast majority of reputable online casinos do not!!. Since they won't listen to reason their claims of "fraud" will be continued to be taken with a deserved grain of salt. Their further claims of "bonus abuse" are simply not worthy of further comment and are received with justified contempt.

As to the matter of the subject player being reluctant to disclose his current whereabouts to Casino Club - I for one wouldn't blame him (and BTW - just where are Casino Club???). If Casino Club want to serve papers they can do that at the players nominated legal representatives offices as his standard legal practice.

In the meantime is it not time to remove Casino Club from the accredited list until this matter is satisfactorily resolved?

??

[spearmaster]

If Casino Club want to serve papers they can do that at the players nominated legal representatives offices as his standard legal practice.

Huh??

How many players do YOU know who nominate legal representatives? How do you know that this player nominated a legal representative?

[Casinomeister]

It was categorically established that was NO bot play. Why do you insist on re-writing history? There was no evidence of Bot play in the most recent Casino Club saga where the extended 8 hour++ play logs were publicly examined (unless you are referring to some other matter that has escaped my attention).

Please refer to my other posts concerning this matter before making careless comments. You've already been warned of being a troll. It would behoove you to carefully read everything I have written about Casino Club before continuing. I have spent an incredible amount of time (as well as Max) dealing with the PABs and complaints posted in this forum.

Here's the thing. Casino Club has been getting hit up by a number of fraudsters and bot players over the past few months. Mostly from Germany, Poland, Belgium, and the UK. Some have used this forum to attempt to blackmail the casino into submission. I won't stand for it.

Recently Kodi has been PMing me - hoping that I'll relook at a fraudulent claim (a member - BrejeSwa - used a bot - and admitted it) he wanted both of his deposits back instead of the one he received.

Like I'm going to help someone who lied to not only the casino, but to me and Max. Some nerve.

The PAB system and this forum is being abused in a bad way - and I'm fed up with it. Here we have Kodi who has opened a second account in this forum to PAB against Metro Casino. This is strictly against the forum rules.

One account - period - unless it's okayed by me.

And why should Casino Club be a "player fraud magnet"? It makes no logical sense. ALL online casinos are equally likely to be exposed to organised fraud and will equally take appropriate measures.

It could be that these players think they can use forums to strong arm a casino into paying out. It wouldn't be the first time. We have had the same situation with Bellerock, Fortune Lounge, the Palace Group, Grand Virtual, and Mini Vegas in the past few years. I guess it's Casino Club's turn. The question is "why"? That's a legitimate question made from an observation.

But the fact is Casino Club considers Bot play fraud - the vast majority of reputable online casinos do not!!. Since they won't listen to reason their claims of "fraud" will be continued to be taken with a deserved grain of salt. Their further claims of "bonus abuse" are simply not worthy of further comment and are received with justified contempt.

As far as I know, any player who met the terms and conditions of a bonus was paid. Those who committed fraud (in most cases it was multiple accounts BTW) were given their deposits back. All except BrejeSwa who forfeited his second deposit after being warned NOT TO USE A BOT. He used one again ADMITTED IT, and the casino pointed to their terms and conditions that state that they had the right to withhold this. The player was fully aware of the risk.

As to the matter of the subject player being reluctant to disclose his current whereabouts to Casino Club - I for one wouldn't blame him

That's just plain stupid advice. There is a Euro 167k jackpot at stake. If the player was in the right, there wouldn't be an issue. Don't ALL online casino require players to provide them with a legitimate address?

(and BTW - just where are Casino Club???).

I believe their gaming servers are in Malta - where they've always been.

If Casino Club want to serve papers they can do that at the players nominated legal representatives offices as his standard legal practice.

In the meantime is it not time to remove Casino Club from the accredited list until this matter is satisfactorily resolved?

??

The player has been given the lawyer's email address, but refuses to contact them. Why the reluctance??

That's all I'm going to spend on this matter. This has been another incredible waste of my time - some of this waste being caused by some forum members who use tunnel vision when involving themselves in these discussions. Each issue and PAB has been dealt with in a fair manner by Max and I - and the Casino Club. And if it's a huge deal for you to play at a casino that has its gaming servers in one country, its web site hosted in another, its customer support in another, its marketing dept in another, and its operator in still another, then I suggest you stick to playing at a land based casino since most online casinos are set up this way.

[thelawnet]

Originally Posted by thelawnet
Well we've still to see the jackpot go back to the players, so that's far from clear yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casino Club
Following the legal resolution of this case, Casino Club will return the money in question to the JP pool.

I'd say that was pretty clear.


Originally Posted by thelawnet
On the issue of the jackpot being added back to the progressive pool, if the player is not going to be paid his winnings , it should be added back ASAP. The issue of the legal claim AGAINST the player is for PREVIOUS winnings, and this doesn't affect the issue of the jackpot being returned.

Surely the whole purpose of a legal case is to establish whether or not the player is due his winnings. I can't see how they can add it back until that is resolved.

No it's not. As I said, there are two separate issues here:

firstly, for reasons that Casino Club hasn't yet made clear, they are seeking to recover monies paid PRIOR to this date. Given that the player presumably deposited at least €10,000 before winning this jackpot, they must have paid out tens of thousands of euros to this player without questioning anything. Which strikes me as odd, but anyway.

secondly, the player has a cause of action against Casino Club to seek payment of his €200k balance. Is he going to do this?

The return of the jackpot is clearly not contingent on repayment of earlier monies BY the player TO the casino (which is what casino club's case is about), but rather on whether there is any chance of this jackpot actually being paid to the player. That could only be determined by the casino agreeing to pay the player the jackpot, or by the player sueing the casino himself.

In other words, you don't sue somebody because you owe them money!