Casino Club closed account of €167'500 JACKPOT winner

[Casinomeister]

...We have been told the same story from the start - 'what happens if we put the money back in the pool and then a court decides we have to pay the player?' As far as I see it, they are either confident in their refusal to pay, or they are not...

@ Casino Club - is there a deadline as to when these funds will be put back into the pool?

[spiderlegz]

And is there a deadline when at least the players 25 000€ deposit is going to be refunded?

[Casinomeister]

And is there a deadline when at least the players 25 000€ deposit is going to be refunded?

Probably no refund. Generally speaking, refunds are usually given to advantage players whose accounts are closed. This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

[Pinababy69]

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing. I suggested he follow that up with a phone call. I guess he's waiting to be told what to do.

How he has handled this is beyond puzzling - it's absurd.

If I - or any of you for that matter - had won a jackpot of this size, and the casino failed to pay out, and then sent a lawyer letter claiming that I had committed fraud, and that they could prove this...I would have been all over this like a freak. Like Pinababy stated earlier, I'd be on this like white is on rice.

There are plenty of law firms that I'm sure would have glady handled this. Hell, I could refer him to another firm that is in the same state as Hambach & Hambach and are expertise in gaming law.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

Am I alone with these thoughts, or am I missing something?

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

Just for the record.....I'm not siding with anyone, so no one is yanking anything.

Honest to God, I have so many unanswered questions.....and every time I start thinking about this thread, my head starts to spin. I mean really....I was seeing things in this thread the other day that weren't even there.

To hear that the LGA is involved, just muddies the water even further. IMO, they are about as useless as a set of a tits on a Brahma bull. Whoever advised this player to take his complaint there didn't do him any favours.

Some of the things that are bugging me about all of this -

The casino keeps saying this is a fraudulent player, but what is their definition of fraud? The lawyer's letter states "statistical prediction of playing patterns through use of illegal software".....I guess they mean bot use. That is NOT fraud. That is a breach of terms and conditions. Yes, if the player did indeed use a bot, then he contravened the T and C's, and is pretty much screwed I'd guess. But it's NOT fraud, not IMO anyway. And if they are denying his win based on this....what are they using for proof? It sure as hell had better be more substantial proof than they used against Heffernan....cause that was a load of BS.

The lawyer's letter mentions another account opened under a female identity. Is this or isn't it fact? Does this player have multiple accounts? Have you seen proof of this Bryan?

There has been mention of the player being linked to a group of bonus abusers and BOT players. Is this a group of people who signed up from the same forum ie. that German forum perhaps? That doesn't make them fraudulent, it makes them advantage players. Unless they are all playing from the same computer(s) and claiming multiple bonuses, or using stolen identities or something. This needs some serious clarification. Again....what type of fraud are we talking about here?

More than once, the player was accused of providing a non-legit physical address....yet we know that can't be the case, because he obviously received the letter from the lawyer. Also, I'm sure I read where he had played here previously, and cashed out. You can't cashout from a Boss Media casino without the security PIN code being mailed to you at your physical address. From the Casino Club website:

When you make your first deposit, we will automatically send a security code to the address you provided when registering your personal account. As the security code is sent to the address you registered, and since it must be entered to review certain financial transactions, it is ensured that your transactions are safe.

So he played before, he cashed out before....he must have received this PIN code in the mail. But when he wins almost 200K, all of a sudden CC "discovers" he's a fraud. Why didn't they pick up on this before?

KMAY just made another very valid point...either Casino Club is 110% confident that their "proof" is solid, or they aren't. They can't have their cake and eat it too. If he's truly a fraud, and they can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt.....then return the money to its rightful owners.

But yes Bryan, I keep coming back to what you've said. WTF is wrong with this guy? I would have had a lawyer the second I received that letter from CC's lawyers. That very day. No screwing around with LGA, or (no offense Bryan) PAB's. You fight fire with fire. And if this is the route that CC wants to go....then fine. They'd be hearing from MY legal counsel. Why in God's name has this guy not done this? It makes not one lick of sense to me. At first I thought maybe he was concerned about court costs, or legal fees. But....if he's confident in his case, and sure he would win it....where is the problem? And if he can afford to deposit 25K, then surely a retainer to a legal firm shouldn't be too much of a hardship.

So none of it makes sense to me. On one hand you have a player who insists he's genuine (has anyone ever asked him if he used a BOT BTW), but who won't pursue the matter vigorously. On the other hand, you have a casino who has already been shown to be too quick to jump the gun on this bot play accusation, with basically zero proof, or very little. Who won't really clarify EXACTLY what they're accusing this player of.

Has Realplayer sent in id to the casino? If so....what form of ID? Has he sent a passport, or driver's licence or birth certificate? Has he sent copies of credit cards?

And then the last thing....while not totally related....does give me pause. And that's the predatory terms being added into Affiliate Club's T&C's. This means something, and speaks to the ethics of the whole organization. It could also mean that like so many other companies (and people) these days, maybe they're feeling the pinch. That's just a thought on my part. But like I've said before....if the affy program is gonna screw affiliates, no reason to have 100% faith in the casino treating their players fairly.

None of this sits right with me. And I have this strange feeling that this is going to be one of these cases, where it never really does. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied. And Bryan, that has nothing to do with you, or with questioning your integrity, for the record. I just don't feel like any of us will ever know the "whole" truth about any of it. I don't trust Casino Club, and I don't for the life of me understand the player.

Probably no refund. Generally speaking, refunds are usually given to advantage players whose accounts are closed. This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

No refund?

Again, I'm back to what in the hell type of fraud are they accusing this guy of that in any way would justify confiscating a 25K deposit? Was this deposit made by Credit Card, or ewallet? Seeing as six months have gone by, it would be too late to do a chargeback via credit card. So Casino Club can rest assured that the 25K charge is finalized. If it was a credit card, was it in this player's name? And if so, huh?

I had been going to ask you if you would consider allowing RealPlayer to post here, because I honestly think this is the only way I'm going to be able to put this to rest in my own mind....if I can talk (post) to him directly. But....I'm not sure if he speaks English. I don't think so, as I've tried to wade through that German forum, and everything is in German. It looks like he may have a translator, but I'm not positive.

I'm honestly baffled beyond belief. So one final question for you Bryan....putting aside for just a minute this player's bizarre behaviour....what makes you so sure this guy is a fraud? Have you seen evidence (I know you can't share specifics) of multiple accounts, or identity theft? Are you convinced the player used a bot? Okay, two questions, lol.

Help me out here, cause I'm really struggling with trying to wrap my head around ALL of this.

Note: I didn't proofread this, so if there are errors, or it's a bit disjointed, you'll all just have to live with it.

[kmay87]

Pinababy summed up most of my frustrations

As well as all the answered questions, we are now mounting up a list of opposites. For example:

Casino Club says they aren't taking legal action. The player says he isn't. The Casino's solicitors send out a letter. CC then says the player is taking legal action. He then says he has filed a complaint with the LGA.

CC says he played a game different to that of which he won the jackpot, using a bot. Then it went to some kind of clairvoyant bot. Finally, it made statistical predictions to give him an advantage. Either it interfered with their software, or it merely predicted the outcome using perfect strategy

CC says they can't pay him the win. But we know they did pay it, and then took it back.

The list is endless.

I was and still am in favour of closing this thread. I could quite easily post on this topic day in, day out, but it comes to a point that we really are debating stuff that may go unanswered for some time. It's good that Bryan is in contact with both CC and the player, but CC basically refused to be drawn in on this discussion. I really don't see where this thread can go unless we get some valid input from them.

[Casinomeister]

For the record, Realplayer was banned for misrepresenting his PAB. When his PAB was forwarded to the casino, the casino's reply included the receipt of the lawyer's letter delivery and they explained that this was in their attorney's hands. The player came back and denied that he had been contacted - even though we had proof.

We gave him the contact details of the legal firm, told him to contact them and settle this. The PAB was closed and so was the player's account (for the above mentioned reasons). This was in December. It's now three months later - with no movement whatsoever....except this thread keeps going on

Realplayer's English is just fine by the way. It's more coherent than many native speakers that I deal with

[Zodiac]

I had been going to ask you if you would consider allowing RealPlayer to post here, because I honestly think this is the only way I'm going to be able to put this to rest in my own mind....if I can talk (post) to him directly. But....I'm not sure if he speaks English.

same opinion too Pina, and yes he is able to post in your language

I've tried to wade through that German forum, and everything is in German.

yes it's in german and you must also use a translator

it is the same if i like to post here

@ Bryan

Take him back from banning and allow him to post, that will be more as fair.

Give him the chance Bryan, the situation is already complicated enough.

[Rusty]

This stinks from both the Casino's and players perspective, no doubt about it.

You are not alone Pinababy and you have the same pertinent questions as the rest of us that so far have received no definitive answer.

Bryan;
This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Yes accused by the people who stole his money as the known facts stand.
You are making some pretty strong statements here Bryan so I can only assume you have seen or possess evidence that realplayer blatantly tried to "rip off" Casino Club.That statement goes well beyond your instincts.
For the benefit of your members could you please state whether you have seen conclusive proof that this Guy is a fraud.

Do you consider it acceptable practice that a Casino steals ( to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share[though most definitions fit]) funds of any player it suspects of fraud?
Or is this just a nice little bonus for Casino's to profit from fraud?

I disagree that anyone is "having their chain yanked" by the player here, we have not even heard from the Guy.
All the doubts and questions here have been brought about by Casino Clubs actions not by information(lack of) from the player.
Many have stated that they smell a rat.

As Pinababy states what does this accusation of fraud relate to?
It can not be bot play so surely it must be multiple accounts, if this is the case then no doubt it can be easily proved and Realplayer is wasting everyones time so lets get the Jackpot money back where it belongs and we can treat the issue of bot play as Red Herring.

However if the fraud accusation relates to bot play then Casino Club are digging a very large and deep hole for themselves.

It is unfortunate that this is going through the LGA Malta and not the courts but perhaps understandable given the reticence of both parties.

[Casinomeister]

This stinks from both the Casino's and players perspective, no doubt about it.

You are not alone Pinababy and you have the same pertinent questions as the rest of us that so far have received no definitive answer.

Bryan;
This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Actually - this was a generalization of two separate observations. I should have separated the sentences with a paragraph. For example:

The casino has accused him of fraudulent activity.

It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who (purportedly) blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Better?

As I mentioned earlier, his account was closed because of misrepresenting his PAB. If I mentioned closed because of fraud, then I mispoke - please remember Max and I have dealt with scores of PABs since then, and I am dealing with a number of other issues/projects as well.

For casinos to confiscate deposits of fraudsters, that is a complex issue that should be dealt with one-on-one. Example: if a player knowingly attempts to defraud a casino by using fake IDs or opening phony accounts, then yes he is forfeiting his deposit. Casinos deal with processing issues daily, in most cases they are billed for their transactions etc. Why should it be expected for them to invest the man hours and resources it take to transfer fraudsters deposits back to fraudsters? Makes no sense. It would be open season on casinos then. The bottom line is that it is up to the casino to deal with this.

Fraud is not bonus abuse or advantage play by the way. But I don't think this pertains to this situation.

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

@realplayer - be cool - don't be playin' us

[thelawnet]

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing.

Now there's a surprise.

The LGA are a disgrace.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

Not sure, still no answer to my questions I see.

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

Not sure about 'siding' with him, the casino haven't presented a credible case against him. He's innocent until proven guilty as far as I'm concerned.

First they said he was using a bot.

Now at some point the claim about multiple identities has appeared.

What's up with that? Why didn't they mention that at the beginning?

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

I'm not sure what has happened between August and December. I can see contacting the LGA has killed months of time (why didn't the casino mention this before, the LGA would have contacted them directly when they received the complaint, so why is it only now that this is their reason for not communicating?), because that's how they operate, but not the first four months.

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

Indeed. Instincts aren't enough to convict.