Grand Mondial - no pay

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by odair

Hi,

yes I did a screenshot when I wasnt paid after 2 weeks and now that I looked at it again, and Term 15 IS there. This means does not mean it was there when I depoisted, but it means I did overread it once, so it is possible that I did overread it twice.
Of course this changes the situation a bit, but still I think it is not right not paying my winnings. It rather seems to me that I really have no chance to get my winnings.
Thanks to Grand Mondial to have let me deposit in this currency though! I guess its impossible programming to not give the player the option if its prohibited! Just dont understand what the CM-acredited list is for if I cant really trust those casinos.

The fact that you didn't take the term in when you read it means it was not sufficiently prominent to make it stand out for attention among all the other terms. Such important terms need to be formatted in a way that draws the eye to them, this is the whole point of web design, and is a skill well used in advertising, drawing the eye to the positive highlights of an offer.

Casinos now have more and more convoluted terms to protect them against advantage play, why the hell do we have to have terms of equal harshness to use against players who choose to avoid bonuses altogether. This will have the long term effect of scaring off inexperienced players, as they simply cannot understand what is morally right about this type of use of an anti bonus abuse term against a player who played entirely with their own funds.
Playing without bonuses altogether usually meant not having to worry about promotional rules and regulations, and the possibility of having winnings voided. This has now changed, and the advice of "if you want to be sure to get paid, don't use bonuses" is no longer true in all cases.

I would like to see the casinos demonstrate by argument how a player can play ONLY with their own funds, yet "take advantage of the casinos generosity" by choosing one supported currency over another. This big currency problem was a complete non-issue in 2005, and even when it was it was because of bonuses, now it seems a huge issue worth casinos throwing away the cream of players, those that are not at all interested in the bonuses but will play anyway.

Microgaming software can already limit the currency list - I have seen it myself, and I have even belatedly seen it go wrong. Villento blocked me from seeing UK Pounds when I signed up, but the website indicates the pound as one of the supported currencies. It may have been down to IP checking, rather than what I stated as place of residence. It could be simply done with place of residence by making the default to only show the dollar, but if players come from a region where their own currency is supported, this is shown instead of the dollar. Operators not bothered about what currency is used can simply allow all places to see the full list.

Incidentally "Idiot Proof" is a programming term, meaning that the program or interface is designed to ensure the user cannot make an invalid choice that makes a mess of the eventual outcome of the operation, be that a bad weather forecast or denied winnings. The requirement is that the programmer must think like a user who knows nothing other than what they want to do, if they make a choice, be it enter a temperature reading of 99 degrees into a field for centigrade because they read the wrong scale on the thermometer farenheight), thus screwing up a weather forcast, or entering the first currency that appeals to them at registration without regard to the fact that this might not be allowed if they live, or don't live in certain parts of the world.
I was often asked to redesign my user interfaces at work because users were getting confused and entering bad values and ending up with an error or the wrong data, and having to waste time looking through loads of instructions to work out what the problem was. The moral here is that pages of rules and instructions can define what is required, but an interface that checks the validity of input choices in real time can prevent much pain and anguish later on, and even teach by example with it's error messages.

[Mario]

Originally Posted by chuchu59

Thanks for responding Mario. Can I take it further by asking whether a player can ask you to refund his deposit if he loses playing in a disallowed currency. IMO, casinos should have the right to protect themselves and even if this is not in any way related to 'advantage play' ie bonuses, you still have a right to not permitting players from using particular currencies for play. However, that would in fact mean that all play with such currencies are void and refunds should be made to players who lose or win since the bets were not accpeted.

Hi Chuchu59,

In fact that is what will happen in regards to players who is picked up playing in the wrong currencies.

We are working on getting or disallowing players from registering a currency if they are not allowed to play in that currency and also trying to be able to pick up these accounts much quicker even before they make a deposit.

However this will take some time before these processes is in place.

But to answer your question that when a player registers an account win or loose their deposits will be refunded.

All of the best,

Mario

PlayShare Group Representative

[lojo]

It's good to hear that they will be refunded; win or lose, (as long as the losing accounts are eventually identified...) and very good to hear you are working on a system to prevent 'wrong currency' deposits in the future.

But I'm of the opinion, that unless it is illegal for you to pay them - if the wager is accepted, the result should be paid... We could argue all day about whether it is incumbant upon the casino to 'know their customer' or if it is up to the player to know the terms. The contract is the bet being placed as in the examples in my last post, not the 'i agree to terms and conditions'.

Grand Mondial and company are stand-up casinos, and always do the right thing so far as I have seen and hopefully creating a software solution to this problem is a priority for them.

[ether]

Originally Posted by Mario

But to answer your question that when a player registers an account win or loose their deposits will be refunded.

All of the best,

Mario

PlayShare Group Representative

Quite funny you're coming up with this wiseguy "in the terms" malarky*, yet you can't spell.
Loose is your ethics (IMHO).
You wanted to write lose.

On a sidenote, why would a casino restrict you using only USD? I mean the $ drops a few % like every day against all major currencies these days.
Deposit, wait for a cashout (absurd timescales these days) and you lost to conversion even if you won!


*I mean this term would be deemed unfair and thus not to be enforced by any normal regulator

[Casinomeister]

Originally Posted by ether

Quite funny you're coming up with this wiseguy "in the terms" malarky*, yet you can't spell.
Loose is your ethics (IMHO).
You wanted to write lose...

Chill please. That tone is not productive to this conversation. Thanks.

[vinylweatherman]

Mario,

Why is currency an issue when NO bonuses are involved?


Why is the US Dollar the default, yet the US have cracked down on transactions, and other players, not from the US, have had casinos explain to them that by playing in the US Dollar they are subject to potential problems due to the fact that Dollar transactions have to go through US banks at some stage in order to be converted to the home currency of the player.

The EURO would make a better choice, conversion would be through EU banks, and there would be no problems with the transactions due to their source.

The ONLY thing I find odd is that this player went for the Pound, and not for the Euro, when not realising this term was there.

What would happen to, say, a Turkish player who registered at Grand Mondial, the terms would indicate they should use the US Dollar.

Well, this DID happen a while back with another casino group, and guess what, the player had their winnings confiscated because the casino claimed they should have played with Euros.

If casinos can offer up a good explanation as to why currency choice is a big issue even when no bonuses are involved, there might be some understanding.

Since casino accounts have nothing to do with currency when no bonus is involved, a fairer solution would just be to correct the account and convert it to dollars, and let all bets stand. After all, we have been assured the software plays no different whether you bet 5 credits a spin or 10 credits.

Once the software is modified, this problem should not arise, but the terms should not have been hurried in before the software could cope, as there would have to be a very good reason, and the only one that makes sense is when bonuses are inflated when using the pound, and this is irrelevant here.

There are enough terms already with casinos, we don't need terms that seem to offer no protection for the casino, and only offer another trap for the player.
It should not be forgotten that these terms are in ENGLISH, and players from many countries have English as a second language, and may well not properly understand the small print, or notice how important a particular term is in relation to the others.
The same is true when installing the MG casino, there is a whole page of SOFTWARE terms and conditions, and these waffle on about reverse decompiling etc, and despite being in English I find them hard to understand, so I assume that since the casino wants me to use the software to play casino games, I can skip these if that is all I intend to do with the casino.
If I took a bonus, I would read the terms for the bonus. But if I decided to play without one, I would not be expecting any traps, and would expect I could play without restrictions, and if the software offers an option, it is a valid choice.
This player probably saw a choice between Euro, Pound, and Dollar, and for some reason selected Pound thinking there is no problem because no bonuses are involved. They may have played elsewhere with pounds with no problems, but didn't want to start with dollars.
If the software only offered dollars, this case would not have arisen, and had the player made the same deposit and same bets, they would have won the same amount of casino credits and been paid.

I have heard that some UK players use US Dollars, not to gain an advantage, but to make their money last longer because the minimum bets are smaller in real terms. Some games have rather high minimum bets, and these are better played in Dollars if all you can deposit is the equivalent of £20 or so a week. In theory, there should be a whole load of UK players being denied winnings because they played in Dollars instead of pounds, but I have not seen this yet, or perhaps we are all happy to use the pound and get bigger bonuses

I can see this being a particular problem with the white label outlets. These are being targeted not at the mainstream, but the niche players. Many of these may not underststand the terms, and believe the review (in their own language) is all they need to know. Very few of these niche players will have their own currencies offered, and could fall into the same trap.
If you restrict them to the dollar, you will lose some players simply because they "hate America" and will not use the dollar because it would seem to be helping America.
The answer might be to support more currencies, since once in the casino they are just "credits". It doesn't matter what the underlying currency is at that stage, all players who cannot use their own currency will have conversion costs, and the player will end up paying them.

[odair]

Hi

just wanted to tell you that GM has paid my deposit back after all this struggle. I am not happy at all for this since I am quite sure if I had lost I would have never complained and they wouldnt have given me my deposit without me complaining.
Just want to tell you that also I did NEVER get an email response after I started this post. No PM here from the CEO who promised to contact me and also not from Mario, posting in this thread that I should contact him (what I did) and that he wouldnt believe I didnt get answers.

Ok, I didnt read the terms correctly. Thus there was no advantage at all for me to play in GBP. Also communication with this casino is very hard. Sorry Meister but I dont see why this casino is on your acredited list.

Anyone who reads this and has depoisted in GM in the wrong currency in the past and then lost I would like to hear if he got his depoist back. I really dont believe that.
@Mario: do you have proove that you did pay back one single lost bet in wrong currency?

[chuchu59]

Odair,

I think the burden of proof will not be on the casino since Mario explicitly stated that they will refund the deposits. Unless proven otherwise, I am afraid that you wont have any recourse for further action at the moment.

As for accreditation, all have different views and as long as they meet Bryan's criteia we should respect that. If Mario had not stated that there would be refunds to all losers and winners using a disallowed currency and only picked on those who won I would vote hands down that they should not be accredited. However, since the casino stuck rigidly to its Terms and Conditions, what can you say?

[hakapuku]

Odair- you MUST be paid all your winnings.

Rest assured that if somebody deposits in the "wrong" currency at any Playshare casino and lose his deposit he will NEVER be refunded by the casino. This case is a pure robbery! There is no any bonus involved and still casino robs the player. So all these talks about evil bonus hunters who attack the casinos is a lie! Because there are many casinos who offer bonuses and ALWAYS pay the winnings (like Trident Lounge group,like 32 red , Jackpotfactory and some others). And there are evil casinos (like Playshare group, Fortune Lounge group) which don't pay you when you win with the bonus. Now they invented the methods not to pay you when you only use your money to play without bonus. This proves that we deal here with rogue casinos who should be avoided like a plague. Odair- you must be paid. File a complaint with Microgaming, with whoever might help you. This is a pure robbery. The rule of wrong or good currency can only be applied in the case of bonus.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by hakapuku

Odair- you MUST be paid all your winnings.

Rest assured that if somebody deposits in the "wrong" currency at any Playshare casino and lose his deposit he will NEVER be refunded by the casino. This case is a pure robbery! There is no any bonus involved and still casino robs the player. So all these talks about evil bonus hunters who attack the casinos is a lie! Because there are many casinos who offer bonuses and ALWAYS pay the winnings (like Trident Lounge group,like 32 red , Jackpotfactory and some others). And there are evil casinos (like Playshare group, Fortune Lounge group) which don't pay you when you win with the bonus. Now they invented the methods not to pay you when you only use your money to play without bonus. This proves that we deal here with rogue casinos who should be avoided like a plague. Odair- you must be paid. File a complaint with Microgaming, with whoever might help you. This is a pure robbery. The rule of wrong or good currency can only be applied in the case of bonus.

We still haven't been told WHY this highly unfriendly term is needed when no bonuses were involved. When I played at the old Grand Monaco, there was nothing about any currency being "wrong" or "right" EXCEPT where players deliberately set out to use a strong currency purely to abuse the bonus offering.
Such an important term should NOT be buried at the bottom as an afterthought, it should be VERY prominent, so that no player could fail to have their attention drawn to it.

In terms of international rules, using the foreign currency of America is no different to using the foreign currency of another country. In this cyber world, currencies are no longer a barrier, the conversions are done behind the scenes.
This player was charged in his local currency, which was converted by the proccessor into arbitrary units of virtual currency in the casino lobby. It matters not what arbitrary units were used, the outcome of the wagers is the same becauce the games are RANDOM are they not? Players without bonuses don't stand a better chance of winning just because the lobby converts their currency into one virtual denomination over another.
This will most certainly arise again, especially with the white label offerings that specifically target players from outside the mainstream. Many will probably fall into this trap through ignorance.

From my viewpoint, this rule is petty (where no bonuses are involved), and we are seeing an inflexible "jobsworth" attitude being taken rather than appreciating we are all human and make mistakes. CASINOS make mistakes too, should we "confiscate THEIR winnings" when they do, through a chargeback, rather than accept their apology and correction and move on.

Every time a casino does this to a new player, they teach that player that the industry are a "bunch of crooks". This player may well then be lost to the industry, as they will not want to try again, because in their view they have already won fair and square, and should now be enjoying further play with the winnings.
If I had had this kind of experience at my first casino, I would probably have gone back to fruit machines, and thought the online industry really were the bunch of crooks I was regularly told they were by my peers.