CR DISPUTE over ~$3000 in winnings - bogus claim

[jaguar1987]

1. On July, 11th I ordered a withdrawal of EUR 1006,5 from the Blackjack Ballroom Casino. About EUR 700 were remaining in my account. Several days later (the withdrawal had not been processed yet) I made a EUR 500 bet and won, making my net win around EUR 2200 (or USD 3000). Quite a large win this was, so presumably the casino decided not to pay me by finding an excuse for it, so:

2. on July, 15th I discover that my accounts within this group were locked. PLEASE NOTE: no e-mail informing me about my accounts being locked had been sent to me. I would have been waiting for my withdrawal and wouldn`t have know that it wasn`t processed any more, had I not tried to login into the casino. I do believe that this is an unethical practice and a disrespectful attitude to the players, I have never come across anything like this during all my internet gambling experince.

3. In reply to my e-mail asking to clearify the situation I received this:
Hello Dmitriy
Your account has been closed as there have been many accounts opened from the same location all claiming the same promotion. This is against our terms and conditions.

"All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school. "
http://www.blackjackballroom.com/hel...%3DPromo#Promo
Any deposits that you have made will be refunded.

Kind Regards

*********************************************

I have not opened any accounts besides those in my name, several within this group, from my computer. There has been some mistake or just a desire not to pay large winnings. I suggested that the reasons could have been the following:
a. I use an ISP that gives dymanic IPs. There could have been a coincidence that my IP was the same as the IP of another user at other time
b. I accessed some of my accounts with Microgaming casinos from a university computer. Someone might have accessed his/her account from the same location. I had not made amy bets from there, I was checking the status of my withdrawals.
c. I have acquired my PC second-hand and it may link to accounts of the original owners through hardware identifiers.

I waited for a reply for about a week. Great that not a year. When it came, the casino insisted on its "verdict", adding

4. a point that "Also it appears that you had used autoplay in order to hedge your bets to meet the wagering requirements. As per the terms and conditions, this is prohibited." It should be noted that the casino does not know its own T&C well enough. The T&C prohibit the use of the "autoplay feature" obviously referring to the autoplay function of the Microgaming software. I hadn`t been using it.

5. As I`ve stated above, I have not opened multiple accounts or participated in other nefarious behavior. I believe the casino tried to accuse me of this as this may prevent the gaming authorities or people on some forums from supporting the player, who, in my case, and perhaps in some other cases, has been wrongfully deprived of his winnings, in other words, robbed. I have heard of some casinos using such practices or some "bonus abuse" clauses, but it is a complete surprise for me that the CR group, which is quite reputable, tries to avoid paying large winnings making wrong accusations and not knowing their own T&C well enough.

I respect the rules and the rights of any casino I play in, and I believe that I (and any other honest player) deserve that the casino does the same, which includes following their own T&C STRICTLY, without any broad or narrow interpretation of the rules contained in them as it may be convenient for the casino in each case.

For example, lets see the point in T&C quoted by the casino:

***All promotions can only be claimed once per
person, *****observed
household, *****observed
family, *****observed
household address, *****observed
email address, *****observed
credit card number, *****observed
or shared computer environment such as a library, *****observed
workplace, *****observed
fraternity, *****observed
university *****observed
or school. *****observed


I believe this is just an attempt to "invent" an excuse for not paying a large sum.


I have addressed eCOGRA with no satisfactory result. They wrote
******We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the f ollowing f indings;
Your account has been linked to a number o f other accounts at the casino through identi f iers.
We have reviewed these identi f iers and are satis f ied that the casino has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account at Black Jack Ballroom Casino. For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature o f the identi f iers.*****

I replied,
I do not object to my account being locked. This up to casino to lock my account, at their discretion. But not paying winnings is not lawful in this case. Locking an account should not imply stealing money from it.

I do not know the reason for my account being linked to other accounts through identifiers. I am not the original owner of my computer, it has been acquired second-hand. This might be one of the possible reasons, in addition to those 2 which I stated in my original dispute resolution request, in this case the identifiers can link my account to those of the original owner(s).

The clause in the Terms and Conditions cited by the support team when stating the reasons for my winnings to be confiscafed and account locked is this:

All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school.
It is obvious that my case is not one of those. My computer is not (and does not belong to) a shared computer environment as stated above. All the criterias do not apply to my case. Moreover, this clause does not state that winnings are to be confiscated, nor does any other clause that can be applied to my case.

There are no grounds for confiscating my winnings, which are my money. While I admit that locking an account is something that can be done without even stating the reasons for it (as they are the property of the casino), the funds from the locked account should be transferred to their owner (as they are not the property of the casino).

The grounds for confiscating stated by the casino are invalid, as I explained above.

[chuchu59]

Identifiers? This is sh####. All my accounts were locked by the Riverbelle group 2 years ago when they stated that their identifiers had related my accounts related to other fraudsters. I couldnt gain access to their web sites let alone the casinos as they diverted me to some South African Food site. After complaining here and a couple of months time, they reopened my accounts without even an apology. If they are so damn sure the accounts are yours they should check the relevant accounts with you and tell you, for example, when the accounts were opened etc. The autoplay excuse is also absurd.

The casino must come clean about what identifiers they mean. A long time ago, there was a casino who claimed something similar just because the player resided in a particular country and when the same surname was used which was the same as a previous player it was believed that the person was the one and same player and the winnings were not paid out initially.


Hope all goes out well for you. You could try to Pitch a Bitch but Bryan has been having it tough of late.

[noluckever67]

Theres something really weird there i mean cmon read thru forums and look at excuses other people have given for being bonus abusers and getting caught out.Accept the fact you have abused the bonus and move on.

[jaguar1987]

Theres something really weird there i mean cmon read thru forums and look at excuses other people have given for being bonus abusers and getting caught out.Accept the fact you have abused the bonus and move on.

I have read many forums and the main conclusion that can be made is that CASINOS TRY TO FIND EXCUSES NOT TO PAY THE WINNINGS.

In my case there was not a single word about bonus abusing, only the shit about multiple accounts and autoplay (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C).

The casino suggests I have violated some of the points in TC (2, exactly), but if you read my original message attentively you`ll see nothing has been violated.

[Casinomeister]

...You could try to Pitch a Bitch but Bryan has been having it tough of late.

I'm having it tough? I'm doing fine, just busy that's all

Go ahead and PAB and if I run into any of the Bellerock people this next week I'll have them look into it.

When they mean "identifiers", this usually means that you fall into a category of fraudster by using the same computer to sign up numerous accounts - or you are linked to people who do this. They won't tell you exactly what you've done since they will not disclose how they have detected this. That is their prerogative - and this is understandable since this protects the business from players overriding these things. Normally the casino will share this information with me - about 99% of the time, the casino is spot on.

But I'll check - I just hope you're being honest with me and you are not trying to feed me a load of BS. I'll find out if you are or not.

[lojo]

[QUOTE=jaguar1987;190704 (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C).
QUOTE]

Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?

[jaguar1987]

I'm having it tough? I'm doing fine, just busy that's all

Go ahead and PAB and if I run into any of the Bellerock people this next week I'll have them look into it.

When they mean "identifiers", this usually means that you fall into a category of fraudster by using the same computer to sign up numerous accounts - or you are linked to people who do this. They won't tell you exactly what you've done since they will not disclose how they have detected this. That is their prerogative - and this is understandable since this protects the business from players overriding these things. Normally the casino will share this information with me - about 99% of the time, the casino is spot on.

But I'll check - I just hope you're being honest with me and you are not trying to feed me a load of BS. I'll find out if you are or not.

Was the sentence about PAB and Bellerock addressed to me? Perhaps you meant CR group people then.

I might presume what the nature of identifiers is. IP/style of play/cookies/hardware ID, just like shareware programs somehow identify your PC by hardware.

As I explained above, the point the support quoted does not apply to my case. "All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school. "

Everything is observed, my PC is not a shared computer environment, but it may lead to other accounts through hardware IDs if the original owner had gambled at CR casinos. I know, this may sound quite unbelievable, but such a coinsidence or the dynamic IP coincidence are the reasons I can think of that may have led to this. AGAIN, IF THIS IS THE REASON, IT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE TC AS THE GROUNDS FOR WINNINGS TO BE CONFISCATED.
The other possibility is that both CR and eCogra HAVE LIED.

[jaguar1987]

[QUOTE=lojo;190710]

Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?

roulette and baccy, as far as I remembber

[vinylweatherman]

[QUOTE=lojo;190710]

Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?

This looks like they have detected "bonus abuse". They have decided not to pay, and have come up with the reasons not to.
The "third party program", although not "Autoplay", is the same thing, and will come under the "robot" clauses in the general T & C.
Playing Roulette & Bacarrat is going to earn you an audit anyway, especially FRENCH roulette.
The "autoplay" argument is a bluff, the casino can not PROVE you used it, they can see patterns that indicate you MAY have used it, such as playing for 12 Hours non-stop, bets at same intervals, and in the case of games like Blackjack, playing a "perfect" strategy without a single deviation. Third party programs will look like Autoplay, and there inability to tell them apart is why the accusation was about Autoplay.
If they find out you used a third party program, even though it was not against the T & C, they will know you were only after the SUB, and will still not pay.
The large number of signups MAY indicate account fraud, but often results from a large number of players signing up and using a bonus playing recipe posted on some forum.
Russia often appears on the lists of "banned" countries at some places, and they would be expecting that any oddities emanating from there are down to a number of players attempting to make profits on the bonuses.

This pattern is now so familiar to online casinos, that ALL players should refrain from playing bonuses with any of these forum recipies, but try to develop their own individual style of play.
Spreading play over a large variety of games, including slots, is far less likely to get a player account audited.

It is likely that a return of deposit is all you will get, but this should be ALL deposits, not just the "last one" when you finally found out you could never win when accounts were locked.
Casinos could help themselves by NOT spamming the bonuses for all the other properties once they have a player at one, Casino Rewards SPAM THE HELL out of me URGING me to take the bonuses at ALL 17 properties. This is marketing FROM THEM, it is because I am on their mailing list, and they should know very well how many bonuses I have taken, and how I have played them. I often receive offers for accounts I already have. This careless & misleading marketing makes me feel they should NOT be hiding behind such harsh "after the event" terms UNTIL they get their marketing policies in order.

[bernynhel]

I don't get why anyone thinks the casino is accusing anyone of bonus abuse when they clearly state the lockout is due to multiple accounts which is not allowed per their terms. Citing multiple accounts relieves the casino of having to justify a bonus abuse violation which is a much grayer area whereby multiple accounts from one location or computer is a slam dunk. Good luck to anyone who expects a sizable cashout in a situation like this