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Thread: krino VS GoWild

  1. #11
    vinylweatherman's Avatar
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    A single IP address doesn't even "live" in the same house, it moves around as the ISP allocates them as subscribers switch on their internet each day, and even where users leave it switched on, IP addresses are "refreshed" regularly, and during this process can change.

    The things that are specific to houses are MAC and email addresses. You would have to be a daft fraudster to use the same email address for multiple accounts, but many use the same computer or network, but give false details for each account (usually those of a friend willing to stump up the documents should the account be a winner).

    Registration records much of this additional information, so "matching details" between accounts is not necessarily the information provided by the player, but MAC and serial numbers extracted from the hardware on which the casino has been installed. If the same PC, same internet modem/hub, etc are detected for two accounts, but the addresses are different, suspicions will be raised. Even reinstalling the OS between accounts doesn't work.

    Once suspicions have been raised, they may then go to their processor, even Skrill, for additional evidence.
    It is unwise to use your casino gambling eWallet for your peer to peer transfers. Even when these are innocent, it looks very suspicious (like the financial inner workings of a player syndicate).

    Complaining to Malta or Microgaming is an even LESS effective method than posting about it in a forum. The advice to contact the rep and/or PAB is the best. If they have the eCogra seal, a complaint can be made to eCogra as an alternative to a PAB.

    Legal action is a LAST resort, and even for €6500 the costs may well outweigh the benefits.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gia - GoWild View Post
    we've detected not only matching info with other registered accounts but also recognized the same betting pattern, deposit amounts and the game they all played.
    Just curious, what was the matching info? Was it mac address or IP address? Same City?



  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gia - GoWild View Post
    Hi Krino,

    I've just verified with our Fraud department regarding your case.

    As mentioned by our fraud department, during a verification of your account, we've detected not only matching info with other registered accounts but also recognized the same betting pattern, deposit amounts and the game they all played.

    All linked accounts played the same game, using the same bet size, deposited the same amount and shared identical betting pattern.

    For all the above reasons, we've contacted our processing company to further investigate this case. As stated in the email from Finance department, it was brought to our attention there are also links between you and other registered accounts by our processors.

    With this in mind, all related accounts have been permanently closed, your deposit was refunded to your Skrill account any additional credits have been voided. This matter has been reported to all related departments, as per our user terms and conditions policy.
    This can also have an innocent explanation.

    The deposit amount is governed by the welcome offer, hence new players (if they have the funds) are going to deposit what is needed to get the biggest bonus.

    Games and betting patterns matching could just indicate a "serving suggestion" found on an affiliate forum as how to get the best from the bonus. There are numerous affiliates who advertise on the basis of mechanically recovering the best withdrawal amount from whatever bonus is on offer. These specify in some detail the best game to play, what pattern to use, and what betsize to use. Unconnected players will be playing the same pattern because their aim is to win and move on, and although not desired by the casino, it is not against the terms to try and win. If affiliates are marketing the casino on the basis of "bonus whoring" advice, the casino could decide to terminate their contract for bringing in the wrong kind of traffic, but they don't - the sit back and confiscate winnings from individual players, but dare not p1$$ off the affiliate bringing them in.

    On the subject of breaches of terms and conditions...

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by maphesto View Post
    Just curious, what was the matching info? Was it mac address or IP address? Same City?
    Every single part of your hardware carries a unique ID code, also VWM is slightly wrong with his IP analysis (he only described Dynamic IP`s), there are basically 2 forms of IP`s -Static and Dynamic, these both have leases, a Static IP address has a far longer lease and in most cases when this lease expires you are still allotted the same IP again (unless you release it just prior to it`s expiry date, and don`t renew it for a good few hours afterwards). Dynamic IP`s renew each time you boot your PC, they can however change whilst you are online, and are sometimes the cause of annoying disconnections when playing.

    There are certain other aspects as well that are picked up on security sweeps - Your OS, Browser, Various software`s installed.
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  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seventh777 View Post
    Every single part of your hardware carries a unique ID code, also VWM is slightly wrong with his IP analysis (he only described Dynamic IP`s), there are basically 2 forms of IP`s -Static and Dynamic, these both have leases, a Static IP address has a far longer lease and in most cases when this lease expires you are still allotted the same IP again (unless you release it just prior to it`s expiry date, and don`t renew it for a good few hours afterwards). Dynamic IP`s renew each time you boot your PC, they can however change whilst you are online, and are sometimes the cause of annoying disconnections when playing.

    There are certain other aspects as well that are picked up on security sweeps - Your OS, Browser, Various software`s installed.
    I left out static IP because it is not something most home users get. This is because there are not enough IP addresses available in the current standard, so the switch to dynamic IP addresses has been made by almost all ISPs. Static IP addresses are available by request, but cost more as they are no longer available for dynamic allocation to other customers, with the risk that an ISP will run out of IP addresses under heavy load and not be able to serve it's customers.

    NTL used to offer static IP addresses for the cable connection, but this switched to dynamic long before Virgin took over.

    The new standard, when fully implemented globally, will solve the problem, and every customer and every device will be able to have it's own unique static IP address. The hold up is that not everything is compatible with this new standard, so it cannot be rolled out.

    Computers and other devices CAN be uniquely identified, and there is no need to worry about IP addresses. A casino can tell for CERTAIN whether the same computer has been used for more than one account, so if a player lies about it, the casino is then even MORE suspicious than before.

    The OP's email seems to defend every possible "charge" the casino might produce evidence for, and it's detail itself is "suspicious". Bringing up Skrill transfers from 2007 could be an attempt to divert attention from the REAL "gotcha" that the casino has discovered. Such a reply can only come from an experienced and well educated player. I had no idea whatsoever that transfers in Neteller could have any bearing on deposits, play, and verification at a casino. I learned about this by reading the forums.

    The OP knows so much about this aspect, yet seems very naive about the best way to make a complaint.

    It looks like a correct bust by GoWild, but the OP can still PAB if they think this is all "circumstantial", and they are an innocent victim of the multi account detection systems.
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  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinylweatherman View Post
    I left out static IP because it is not something most home users get. This is because there are not enough IP addresses available in the current standard, so the switch to dynamic IP addresses has been made by almost all ISPs. Static IP addresses are available by request, but cost more as they are no longer available for dynamic allocation to other customers, with the risk that an ISP will run out of IP addresses under heavy load and not be able to serve it's customers.

    NTL used to offer static IP addresses for the cable connection, but this switched to dynamic long before Virgin took over.

    The new standard, when fully implemented globally, will solve the problem, and every customer and every device will be able to have it's own unique static IP address. The hold up is that not everything is compatible with this new standard, so it cannot be rolled out.

    Computers and other devices CAN be uniquely identified, and there is no need to worry about IP addresses. A casino can tell for CERTAIN whether the same computer has been used for more than one account, so if a player lies about it, the casino is then even MORE suspicious than before.

    The OP's email seems to defend every possible "charge" the casino might produce evidence for, and it's detail itself is "suspicious". Bringing up Skrill transfers from 2007 could be an attempt to divert attention from the REAL "gotcha" that the casino has discovered. Such a reply can only come from an experienced and well educated player. I had no idea whatsoever that transfers in Neteller could have any bearing on deposits, play, and verification at a casino. I learned about this by reading the forums.

    The OP knows so much about this aspect, yet seems very naive about the best way to make a complaint.

    It looks like a correct bust by GoWild, but the OP can still PAB if they think this is all "circumstantial", and they are an innocent victim of the multi account detection systems.
    I just had a quick look at my ipconfig to check my IP lease time, it appears that mine has changed from Static to Dynamic it had been static for years........

    IP.jpg

    As you can see it is only an hourly lease, I will check after this hour to see if I keep the same IP.

    @Neteller and linking accounts, as you may be aware of you can start a basic Neteller account easy and quickly without any need for verification (verifications only upgrade the account created), and you can create accounts using the same PC with NP`s, I would pretty much guarantee that these fraudsters have one main account that is verified and an e-card has been issued, start accounts with friends/relatives details load these accounts and deposit using them, withdraw to them and transfer winnings to the main account.

    As Neteller have no qualms in assisting casinos tracking these fraudsters they could help them immensely by restricting accounts to one per household, this reminds me of a statement many years ago by the then American President (Carter or Reagan iirc), whilst talking about the UK`s problem with the IRA and I quote `How can we help you guys with this problem?`, my instantaneous response was - To stop helping fund them, would be a great start (NOR-AID collection boxes placed at many establishments including McDonalds).
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  8. #17
    vinylweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seventh777 View Post
    I just had a quick look at my ipconfig to check my IP lease time, it appears that mine has changed from Static to Dynamic it had been static for years........

    IP.jpg

    As you can see it is only an hourly lease, I will check after this hour to see if I keep the same IP.

    @Neteller and linking accounts, as you may be aware of you can start a basic Neteller account easy and quickly without any need for verification (verifications only upgrade the account created), and you can create accounts using the same PC with NP`s, I would pretty much guarantee that these fraudsters have one main account that is verified and an e-card has been issued, start accounts with friends/relatives details load these accounts and deposit using them, withdraw to them and transfer winnings to the main account.

    As Neteller have no qualms in assisting casinos tracking these fraudsters they could help them immensely by restricting accounts to one per household, this reminds me of a statement many years ago by the then American President (Carter or Reagan iirc), whilst talking about the UK`s problem with the IRA and I quote `How can we help you guys with this problem?`, my instantaneous response was - To stop helping fund them, would be a great start (NOR-AID collection boxes placed at many establishments including McDonalds).
    This would be a problem for Neteller, as they would then have to accept that all members of a household use the same Neteller account. I thought only verified accounts could use peer to peer transfers, and that this was implemented to prevent basic satellite accounts from being used in this manner, whether or not for online gambling.
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  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinylweatherman View Post
    This would be a problem for Neteller, as they would then have to accept that all members of a household use the same Neteller account. I thought only verified accounts could use peer to peer transfers, and that this was implemented to prevent basic satellite accounts from being used in this manner, whether or not for online gambling.
    I`m pretty sure you can use peer to peer transfers with some basic verification, as far as using different accounts from the same household this could be easily cured by creating accounts at an alternative place 1st, which again just opens doors for these fraudsters, what ever way you look at it, it`s a nightmare for casinos in combating multi account based fraudsters.
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  10. #19
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    @ Mods: Was the OP banned from the forum purely based on what Go Wild posted - or do you have additional information?
    It seemed very quick & harsh from what I've read.

    Also, does being banned from the forum prevent the player from submitting a PAB?

    I agree with what VWM said (below) - based on what has been written so far, this player COULD be just another "advantage player" and not any type of fraudster.
    I would like to think that CM gives players the "benefit of the doubt" until conclusive proof is obtained...


    Quote Originally Posted by vinylweatherman View Post
    This can also have an innocent explanation.

    The deposit amount is governed by the welcome offer, hence new players (if they have the funds) are going to deposit what is needed to get the biggest bonus.

    Games and betting patterns matching could just indicate a "serving suggestion" found on an affiliate forum as how to get the best from the bonus. There are numerous affiliates who advertise on the basis of mechanically recovering the best withdrawal amount from whatever bonus is on offer. These specify in some detail the best game to play, what pattern to use, and what betsize to use. Unconnected players will be playing the same pattern because their aim is to win and move on, and although not desired by the casino, it is not against the terms to try and win. If affiliates are marketing the casino on the basis of "bonus whoring" advice, the casino could decide to terminate their contract for bringing in the wrong kind of traffic, but they don't - the sit back and confiscate winnings from individual players, but dare not p1$$ off the affiliate bringing them in.
    KK
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  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KasinoKing View Post
    @ Mods: Was the OP banned from the forum purely based on what Go Wild posted - or do you have additional information?
    It seemed very quick & harsh from what I've read.

    Does being banned prevent the player from submitting a PAB?

    I agree with what VWM said (below) - based on what has been written so far, this player COULD be just another "advantage player" and not any type of fraudster.
    I would like to think that CM gives players the "benefit of the doubt" until conclusive proof is obtained...




    KK
    Bryan, Max and co are privy to information that we are not, if the player has been banned due to this privy info i`m pretty confident that their actions were justified .
    During sex, I stopped, she said "What you stopped for?", I said "Ssh, I saw this on porn tube, it's called buffering".



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