Betfred - The bonus abuse accusing king

[rpalmer83]

This may be a bit long winded to please bear with me:

After I claimed and played the signup bonus at BetFred casino back in 2006 I was told immediately afterwards I was no longer welcome to any promotions unless I played in the casino without claiming a bonus. However I was not mererly interested in the bonuses on offer and continued to be a regular player there and have deposited, played won money and lost money. The natural way of gambling.

This weekend, From Thursday to Saturday BetFred casino have been running a promotion, where you get a 20% bonus on all deposits over the course of the promotion upto a maximum of £400. You had to email them to opt into the promotion. There was a choice of an ALL GAMES bonus and a MOST games bonus. I chose the ALL GAMES bonus, bearing in mind I haven't had any promotions from the casino for months and months and have been playing there with my own money. The agent replied saying I could now play for the ALL GAMES bonus and that my VIP level was now at Silver. Allowing me to claim promotions with lower wagering requirements and more games allowed. The second tier ranking for its loyal players.

Details of this promotion are here: http://www.betfred.com/casino/d.asp?show=400_giveaway

The terms for the all games bonus were 12 x deposit+bonus on any game. But on Friday afternoon were changed to exclude several games and increase the wagering to 25x deposit+bonus, how they can still call legitimately or legally call that an ALL GAMES bonus im not sure?.

On thursday night, and before the T&C changes I attempted a £2000 deposit in one go but my bank declined it so I though I would claim the bonus in sections as would appear to be allowed since the bonus is 20% on all deposits to a maximum of £400 bonus. I deposited £500 into the casino, recieved a £100 bonus wagered and lost my deposit and bonus. I was playing Blackjack at £10/hand and wagered about £5000 when I bust out to zero. I deposited another £500, recieved the second £100 bonus, wagered over £7200 and withdrew £860 odd to the sportsbook. I attempted a further deposit with my card to the casino but again this was declined so I transferred from the sportsbook back into the casino. A pop up appeared giving me another £100 bonus, I wagered another £7200, withdrew and did the same again in order to claim the last £100 bonus of the £400 allowed. I then placed my withdrawal of a total of £1201 and yesterday was horrified to recieve this email:

Dear Player,


Thank you for playing with Betfred Casino.
You recently requested a withdrawal for £1222.01. After a review of your recent game play we can see that you have not been completing the wagering requirements for the bonus funds received. Kindly note, you must complete the required wagering before you can withdraw the bonus funds along with any winnings. Simply withdrawing your initial deposit before completing the required wagering will result in no further bonuses being awarded in the future.
In addition to this we can also see that you have been transferring funds from chips to sports and vice versa to receive multiple bonuses. The below is stated via our ‘General Bonus Rules’


§ YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WITHDRAW ANY WINNINGS UNTIL YOU HAVE MET WAGERING REQUIREMENTS – this includes transferring to Sportsbook or withdrawing from the poker and/or bingo clients. Any withdrawal requests will be rejected until wagering requirements are met or winnings void at the discretion of management.

§ Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits – other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.


On this occasion we have permitted your withdrawal request. However it is with regret that we have to inform you that we will no longer be able to offer you bonuses in the future.


If you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact us.



Kind Regards,

Phil Lam

Deputy Casino Manager

www.betfredcasino.com

I was angry at the allegation that I had not met the wagering requirements, I wagered what was required and more besides for each individual bonus claimed. In addition the casino software DOES NOT even physically allow you to withdraw funds if you have not met the required wagering requirements anyway and I could not understand why it was such a problem for me to have claimed the bonus in the way I did and so sent the following email:

Dear sir/madam,

Is the email I have recieved a mistake or something because I completely refute the claims and allegations made against me regarding my recent withdrawal. I have deposited and played in your casino for months and months without recieving any kinds of bonuses. Including Deposits and losses sometimes in the region of £500 or more, if you review my play and deposit history this will be supported. I emailed to opt in to your £400 cash giveaway promotion in good faith because I felt it was an interesting promotion and was able to play my favourite game which is Blackjack and the minute I withdraw from it you make all kinds of allegations that I have somehow abused it?.

I have completed the wagering requirements in full for this promotion. On thursday the terms and conditions of the all games bonus were 12x the deposit and bonus amounts. I deposited £500 into the casino, and recieved a £100 bonus, playing large hands. This would have a £7200 wager requirement 12x(100+500). I lost all of my deposit and bonus and subsequently deposited another £500, recieving another £100 bonus. This I played through in full and did not withdraw before completing. I notice you have now adjusted the terms and conditions but have not seen these until today and I'm sorry if I haven't complied with the new ones but I simply genuinely did not see them.

After completing the wagering I did withdraw to the sportsbook and then claimed another part of the bonus by transferring back into the casino, There is nothing wrong with doing this according to your own terms and conditions. You are offering a 20% bonus on all deposits upto a maximum of £400, and the terms state "We will match ALL of your deposits by 20% up to a maximum of £400.00". If it was a single deposit that was required then I could understand it.

If there is really a problem with my wagering you could have simply declined the withdrawal and explained to me what I'd done wrong and allowed me to wager further or inform me of my mistake.

I would be greatful if you could review my account and take into account the fact that I have been a regular player in your casino WITHOUT recieving bonuses in the past however if you intend to punish me by excluding me from any kind of benefit for playing in the casino then I may as well take my custom elsewhere as I do not expect this kind of hassle, inconvenience and aggrivation just for opting in to a single promotion after months of non-promotional play.


Yours sincerely

rpalmer83

I subsequently recieved the following back:

Dear Player,


Thank you for contacting Betfred Casino Support.
Firstly please rest assured that this email is genuine.
In reference to your deposits and game play previously kindly note that this has no bearing on the bonus funds recently received or the terms & conditions attached. After reviewing your account details we can confirm that on 12/03/09 you deposited a total of £978.00. On 13/03/09 you then transferred £500.00 from sports to chips and claimed a £100.00 bonus. You then transferred a further £510.00 from sports to chips and claimed a further £100.00 bonus.

As stated via our ‘General Bonus Rules’ – “Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits – other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.”

On this occasion we have used our discretion and have not voided your winnings, this is partly due to the fact that you have been a loyal players since joining and have had considerable losses previously.

However I am afraid that this decision is final for the immediate future. We hope that you can appreciate that our General House Rules need to be adhered to ensure that we can continue to offer the best possible bonuses to our players. Obviously if you continue to play over the next 6-8 weeks please do not hesitate to contact us and we will happily review your account details to see if you are eligible to receive bonus funds again.

We hope that this is satisfactory and if you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.


Kind Regards,


Phil Lam

Deputy Casino Manager

www.betfredcasino.com

Now it seems they have revoked my promotion privelages on the grounds that I transferred to the sportsbook and back into the casino, but bear in mind this was 'Real cash' any funds transferred from the sportsbook to the casino had met any terms with regards to bonuses attached to it and any sensible person would be able to see that a transfer from the sportsbook is no different to physically depositing funds by card. Which I also would have done anyway in the first instance had my bank not declined the original £2000 deposit in one go. I have sent them a final email but coming here was the only other thing I could think of to do. I have at least requested that they change the clause from 'other transfers' to 'sportsbook transfers' so it is more clear and makes more sense.


This is the final email I sent:

Dear Mr lam,

I do not understand the issue here at all, so it is against the rules to make transfers from the sportsbook into the casino when claiming promotions?. In which case I do feel you should update the term you have quoted to me then to reflect that sportsbook transfers are not allowed when claiming promotions as 'other transfers' is a very loose term and could mean anything.

Again, I met the wager requirements in sections. I wanted to claim the full bonus amount immediately but my bank would not authorise a deposit of £2000, They also contacted me on Friday morning as a fraud prevention measure to confirm my deposits into your casino were genuine and not fraudulent. So I felt that depositing £500 in increments and wagering the full amount of £500 + £100 bonus x 12 = £7200 each time as stipulated in the terms and conditions would be acceptable. Indeed I thought this would be acceptable given the fact the promotion was billed as 'matching ALL deposits by 20% upto a maximum of £400. I had no idea that I would be somehow abusing the promotion.

The end result is the same. A £400 bonus for £29,000 wagered. I never withdrew any funds without meeting the terms and conditions. Surely also a withdrawal to the sportsbook then redepositing to the casino is no different to withdrawing back to card then redepositing from card again?.

I find it quite bizzare being upgraded to Silver VIP status on thursday afternoon, obviously reflecting the amount of play and losses without bonus funds in the casino over the past few months and the minute I participate in a promotion I am told I have abused it and am no longer welcome to anymore.

You have said the decision is final, but I do not agree with it, and my future play in the casino will certainly have to be a considered one. As much as I enjoy your casino I do not want to be made to feel like a criminal just for being a loyal customer.



Yours sincerely

rpalmer83

I don't see what difference a transfer to and from the sportsbook makes and why it is frowned upon. It surely makes no difference to the casino whether funds came from the sportsbook or a fresh deposit from a card if all wager requirements have been met. It seems they think they can do what they like. 'other transfers' could mean anything. What about if you make a telephone deposit?, even a Neteller deposit could be interpreted not to be a 'Real cash' deposit. Or even a card deposit, a debit card does not hold real cash. It is an electronic 'transfer' from a debit/credit card to an electronic betting account. It is NOT real cash, so in my opinion that particular term cannot be considered an enforcible one.

[rpalmer83]

In addition, the fact that a person who is deputy manager in a casino which is accredited by CM and supposed to also be a trusted high street brand made this comment in particular horrifies me:


On this occasion we have used our discretion and have not voided your winnings, this is partly due to the fact that you have been a loyal players since joining and have had considerable losses previously.


That to me is a blatent admission that the casino's policy is that if a player claims a bonus then unless that player loses money then they have the RIGHT to confiscate your winnings. An absolute shambles. Seperately, I am considering writing to a tabloid newspaper about this. A bookmaker which is calling itself 'the Bonus King' is quite frankly nothing short of hypocritical and should not behave in this way. I don't believe Ladbrokes or William Hill would pull such a stunt. I do not know what sort of training BetFred's customer service team get but it is certainly not one of customer care and putting them first.

[chuchu59]

Though I havent played at Betfred for over a year my experiences with them have been generally good.

Over such a short period of 3 days, I dont think it is right that Betfred should change the terms and conditions in the middle of the promotion. Players could be caught unawares if they happened to deposit late on Friday or on Saturday without checking the site again. However, it was also explicit that bonuses will not be offered on transfers from sportsbook so I dont see the reason for being agitated here. The fact that the software allows this is a loophole and it seems you have exploited it to the fullest. If you think that a transfer should be deemed as a real cash deposit, then what would constitute a non-cash deposit?


It also seems that you are fully aware of the change in bonus terms. Though they are wrong in changing it mid-way, unless you did not know about it why did you not ask their support about it before effecting the transfers to gain the bonuses.


The discretion to allow you to withdraw winnings makes sense in that they have given you the benefit of the doubt relating to cash deposits and that they are clearly wrong in imposing fresh terms and conditions ie wagering requirements for a player who has been claiming the bonuses several times and it would leave a bad taste in the mouth if identical bonuses were subject to different WRs. It was also unintelligent of them to say to you that they were allowing your withdrawal because of your previous losses. However, I doubt whether they actually mean that unless you lose money they have the right to confiscate winnings. It's just that they do not wish to lose a loyal player.

[rpalmer83]

Though I havent played at Betfred for over a year my experiences with them have been generally good.

Over such a short period of 3 days, I dont think it is right that Betfred should change the terms and conditions in the middle of the promotion. Players could be caught unawares if they happened to deposit late on Friday or on Saturday without checking the site again. However, it was also explicit that bonuses will not be offered on transfers from sportsbook so I dont see the reason for being agitated here. The fact that the software allows this is a loophole and it seems you have exploited it to the fullest. If you think that a transfer should be deemed as a real cash deposit, then what would constitute a non-cash deposit?.

Where is the mention that transfers from sportsbook to claim bonuses are explicity excluded?. There is no mention of this in the terms whatsoever so I am not sure where you have got this from. All they state in the general terms is "Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits – other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion". As I said previously, other transfers could be taken to mean absolutely anything. I'm not sure what a non-cash deposit would constitute. But a deposit by card into the sportsbook then transferring into the casino is still 'Real Cash', it does not become 'Pretend cash' just becasuse its been transferred. Indeed if I recieve a 'Bank Transfer' into my bank account is that not 'Real Cash' once it is in the account or a cheque that has cleared?. The term is loose and gives them the right to behave in any mannor they seem fit and needs to be updated to reflect what their definition of 'Real Cash' is.

There is no loophole at all, I also play at PaddyPower and you deposit into the sportsbook and then transfer into the casino in order to play games. This is absolutely normal behaviour and indeed this is standard practice for most casinos which are also a sportsbook whether claiming a bonus or not. I would like to hear a reason why it is to the casinos detriment to allow such a practice?. To clarify I did not deposit into the sportsbook, to the casino to claim the bonus then immediately withdraw and do the transfer again to stack up bonuses. I met the wager requirements of each bonus before initiating a new transfer to or from the casino. The casino software even AUTOMATICALLY transfers your funds back to the sportsbook before withdrawing back to Card, Neteller etc.

It also seems that you are fully aware of the change in bonus terms. Though they are wrong in changing it mid-way, unless you did not know about it why did you not ask their support about it before effecting the transfers to gain the bonuses.

You have missed the point here, I did the transfers, all wagering and made my withdrawal request BEFORE the term changes were even posted on the site and came into effect. This is reflected in the casino managers change in stance where he initially said I had not wagered enough then later dropped that argument and used the one about transferring to and from the sportsbook.

The discretion to allow you to withdraw winnings makes sense in that they have given you the benefit of the doubt relating to cash deposits and that they are clearly wrong in imposing fresh terms and conditions ie wagering requirements for a player who has been claiming the bonuses several times and it would leave a bad taste in the mouth if identical bonuses were subject to different WRs. It was also unintelligent of them to say to you that they were allowing your withdrawal because of your previous losses. However, I doubt whether they actually mean that unless you lose money they have the right to confiscate winnings. It's just that they do not wish to lose a loyal player.

But this is no way to treat a loyal player at all. Only on thursday they put me in the Silver VIP club to reward my loyalty and have now taken that away along with my ability to claim ANY bonus in the casino all in the short space of a day for claiming this one single promotion. I wonder If they would have revoked my privilages and kicked up a fuss for using funds transferred froim the sportsbook had I lost money?. I think NOT. The behaviour is diabolical.

The fact that they THOUGHT about confiscating winnings on these grounds is enough to tell people that they should think twice about playing at this casino. Had the comments come from customer service it would be a silly mistake to have said it but someone who is Deputy Manager????. It is shocking beyond belief and is probably the worst possible thing anyone could hear from an online casino since it reflects the ethics the business is being managed under to pretty much full extent.

[kmay87]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly sure it does say somewhere in the general bonus terms and conditions, as the deputy manager also quoted to you, that to receive the bonus you have to make fresh deposits. I'll see if I can find it.

But more so than that, it usually says you have to make these deposits to your casino account. I've known of them in the past to refuse to give bonuses to people who deposited into the sportsbook (by mistake possibly) and then transferred it across. In other casinos, this can be a loophole. You were able to transfer x amount to your casino account, receive a bonus, then if you complete the WR you could transfer it to the sportsbook and back again. In my opinion, I don't really see why they don't like this. If you collect a bonus by swapping funds, the only money the casino can lose is the bonus. But by depositing, they incur fees, so the logistics behind it are something they probably won't tell us.

Not wanting to side with the casino (I know how quick they are to bonus ban) but if that is what's in the t and cs, then they can do whatever they like if you have breached them. If you took the bonus BEFORE the terms changed, then irrespective of when they were changed, your WR was the 12x (d+b). However, if they changed them and you then took another bonus, then the new wagering applies. Unfortunately, however much you may argue, saying 'I didn't see them' isn't going to hold any weight at all. Pleading ignorance doesn't usually get you very far

I'm curious though. You said you played £10 hands of blackjack. Part of your withdrawal is £2.01. That couldn't have come from blackjack. Is it possible you may have had bonus funds left in your account that carried over?

[rpalmer83]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly sure it does say somewhere in the general bonus terms and conditions, as the deputy manager also quoted to you, that to receive the bonus you have to make fresh deposits. I'll see if I can find it.

But more so than that, it usually says you have to make these deposits to your casino account. I've known of them in the past to refuse to give bonuses to people who deposited into the sportsbook (by mistake possibly) and then transferred it across. In other casinos, this can be a loophole. You were able to transfer x amount to your casino account, receive a bonus, then if you complete the WR you could transfer it to the sportsbook and back again. In my opinion, I don't really see why they don't like this. If you collect a bonus by swapping funds, the only money the casino can lose is the bonus. But by depositing, they incur fees, so the logistics behind it are something they probably won't tell us.

Yes they do have a term and it is shown here and this is the reason the manager is saying there is a problem. http://www.betfred.com/casino/d.asp?...al_bonus_rules the ninth term down. But it states:

Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits – other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

As i've mentioned earlier, this could mean absolutely anything. A debit card deposit is a transfer from yout bank account to the casino. A Neteller transaction is a transfer from a web-wallet to the casino. The only thing a real cash deposit would be is physically going into a BetFred shop and giving the physical cash. The term is loose, and is not really enforcible they are just using it as an excuse to be awkward. As you have rightly pointed out there is no logical reason why transferring to and from sportsbook should be a problem unless it was solely to abuse the bonus in some way like stacking them but that clearly was not my intention at all

Not wanting to side with the casino (I know how quick they are to bonus ban) but if that is what's in the t and cs, then they can do whatever they like if you have breached them. If you took the bonus BEFORE the terms changed, then irrespective of when they were changed, your WR was the 12x (d+b). However, if they changed them and you then took another bonus, then the new wagering applies. Unfortunately, however much you may argue, saying 'I didn't see them' isn't going to hold any weight at all. Pleading ignorance doesn't usually get you very far .

I'm curious though. You said you played £10 hands of blackjack. Part of your withdrawal is £2.01. That couldn't have come from blackjack. Is it possible you may have had bonus funds left in your account that carried over?

I am aware about the T&C change and all my deposits, wagering and withdrawals were done before they changed. I said all this to the manager because he initially claimed I had withdrawn the bonus WITHOUT completing wagering requirements, after pointing this out he backed down on this argument and said it was the transferring that was the problem as you will see from my emails posted above.

The £2.01 balance was already in my account and either came from earlier slot play or comp points conversion im not sure. Blackjack was played at £10 per hand and no less.

[kmay87]

The idea behind the 'real cash' term is simple. If you make one deposit, collect the bonus and complete the wagering and withdraw it to your sportsbook account, the money remains in the casino. If you then transfer it across to collect another bonus, the casino hasn't gained anything. But if you make another deposit - after withdrawing or busting out of the previous one - then there is every chance you may reverse that previous withdrawal.

If you completed the wagering before the terms changed, we can disregard that line of thought.

Basically, quite a number of terms in every casino are loose and open to debate. This allows them to infer something. Therefore, in this instance, you were told you breached the terms and conditions etc etc etc, and don't have a leg to stand on. You can argue all you want, but it never seems to get anywhere.

I notice the rep hasn't logged in for a few days now. I'd suggest you PM Ian, here. Us CM members often get treated better than other players

[rpalmer83]

The idea behind the 'real cash' term is simple. If you make one deposit, collect the bonus and complete the wagering and withdraw it to your sportsbook account, the money remains in the casino. If you then transfer it across to collect another bonus, the casino hasn't gained anything. But if you make another deposit - after withdrawing or busting out of the previous one - then there is every chance you may reverse that previous withdrawal.

If you completed the wagering before the terms changed, we can disregard that line of thought.

As I said, all terms were met, the withdrawal to sportsbook makes no difference. On transferring back I could have quite easily lost the amount I have transferred into the casino just like a fresh deposit and that would be the same amount lost to me as a player. If they had a problem with people transferring money the promotion should have been just 20% up to a maximum of £400, requiring a £2000 deposit in a single transaction. Not "All your deposits to the casino will recieve 20% bonus up to £400"

Basically, quite a number of terms in every casino are loose and open to debate. This allows them to infer something. Therefore, in this instance, you were told you breached the terms and conditions etc etc etc, and don't have a leg to stand on. You can argue all you want, but it never seems to get anywhere.

I notice the rep hasn't logged in for a few days now. I'd suggest you PM Ian, here. Us CM members often get treated better than other players

I may not have a leg to stand on but it is my duty as a genuine casino player to inform others of such a shocking attitude. Reading around other internet forums it appears I have infact been lucky to come out with my winnings intact from this particular promotion. As other players are also having problems. Loose terms and excercising rights on them are the behaviour of rouge casinos, most of the big casinos make their terms clear and would not try to punnish a player on a minor technicality.

If you are fine playing at a casino where a manager clearly tells players things like:

On this occasion we have used our discretion and have not voided your winnings, this is partly due to the fact that you have been a loyal players since joining and have had considerable losses previously.

then please do continue, however a persons loyalty and losses should not be a factor in deciding whether they pay out or not which clearly is the policy of BetFred casino since it has been stated to me in writing by a manager.

I will contact the representive in the next couple of hours.

[kmay87]

But if they required everyone to deposit £2000, they would see far less people opt to receive the bonus than just the 20% on every deposit.

I totally agree with you, how you've been treated isn't right. But I also like to consider the other side. A typical response by a casino could be 'you should have read the terms and conditions clearly'. Personally, I don't play there, for reasons other than yours, but the fact is that when you took the bonus, you should have understood the terms and conditions. They don't hide the fact that you need to make fresh deposits in order to receive the bonus, and they aren't the only casino to use such a system.

All that aside, while I can understand that you are annoyed at this, I would still be thankful to the manager for paying you. Had you been a new player, your deposits would have been returned and that would be the end of it. Search the forums here - you will see plenty of such instances.

When you PM Ian, flag him to this thread so he can comment on it for all of us.

[rpalmer83]

But if they required everyone to deposit £2000, they would see far less people opt to receive the bonus than just the 20% on every deposit.

I totally agree with you, how you've been treated isn't right. But I also like to consider the other side. A typical response by a casino could be 'you should have read the terms and conditions clearly'. Personally, I don't play there, for reasons other than yours, but the fact is that when you took the bonus, you should have understood the terms and conditions. They don't hide the fact that you need to make fresh deposits in order to receive the bonus, and they aren't the only casino to use such a system.

All that aside, while I can understand that you are annoyed at this, I would still be thankful to the manager for paying you. Had you been a new player, your deposits would have been returned and that would be the end of it. Search the forums here - you will see plenty of such instances.

When you PM Ian, flag him to this thread so he can comment on it for all of us.

I am also reading stories on other forums of people being paid who transferred into and out of the sportsbook in order to claim the full value of the bonus and have been paid immediately and not recieved such an email pointing figures of bonus abuse as I have. So yet again there is more proof that I have not been treated neither equally nor fairly regarding this issue. A couple have also contacted me and would like to post in this thread however they are unable to as they do not have enough reputation, I guess that is just unfortunate as these are the forum rules.

I am thankful for your posting kmay87 and appreciate it as it his helpful to have an opinion but I do hope other members will post also and give their opinion so we can get a balanced point of view here.

As has already been said, transferring between the sportsbook and casino has no negative effect for the casino, infact as you yourself said it would save them money on bank processing fees. I would like to hear a proper reason why this is the case. The only reason BetFred has given is

The reason that we have such a rule in place is to prevent players who transfer funds from chips to sports and vice versa for the sole purpose of receiving multiple bonuses. An actual deposit must be made for each individual bonus that is awarded.

I have already told them my intention was not solely to recieve multiple bonuses which they know full well is the case. They should have a record of the declined card deposits on the account and this should be considered, but they are still being awkward and unreasonable on this issue.

In my eyes the term:

bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits – other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

Is not clear enough to tell you that you cannot transfer from the sportsbook. It does not clearly state what constitutes a transfer or their definition of a 'real cash deposit'. Only when you query it with them they give the reason above which leads me to believe it is there to trip people up. Why not change it to state:

bonuses will only be valid on deposits directly to your casino account – transfers between sportsbook or poker wallets will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

my example is clear, to the point and cannot be argued with.