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Watch those fake IDs

The Dude

The Dude

The artist formally known as Casinomeister
Hall Of Fame Awardee Shield Meister
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Perhaps I should have a "Pitch a Bitch" of the week. Here's this week's highlight:

Firstly, I'm well aware that this is more likely to end me up in the evil players section or at least the stupid players one. It is a problem of my own making but I feel that it would be reasonable for them to pay out my winnings. Below is the most recent email I sent them after being informed of the reason for my cash in being rejected. The details of the problem are in it.

Hi,

Im writing with regard to a withdrawal I made which has just been refused for reasons of fraud by your payment processors. I am aware of the reason for this and it is my own fault. I sent you two copies of my drivers liscense, one had a birthday of 1982, the other said 1986. Obviously the 1982 birthdate did not match the one listed on my account as it had been doctored by me previously. The reason it was doctored had nothing to do with this withdrawal or with your casino. The doctored copy was stored on my computer under a very similar filename to the genuine one and it was accidentally sent to you. I had doctored the copy a few months previously when dealing with a different casino who for some reason had imposed a minimum age of 21. I wanted to sign up to their casino and didn't think it would do any harm if I changed my birthdate when registering. Being unfamiliar with internet casinos, I wasnt aware that they would likely ask for ID to verify it. I played at their casino and enjoyed it, making a considerable profit. However when asked for ID I panicked thinking they would refuse me my winnings. By playing on photoshop I was able to change the 86 for a 82.

This was obviously a wrong thing to do but I'm sure you can appreciate my worry at being refused my winnings. Unfortunately, this copy was stored on my computer and when I played at your casino I accidentally sent the faked version instead. There was obviouisly no reason to do this as I am both legal age and above the minimum age for your casino. It was careless and when you requested a copy again I was still unaware that I had sent the fake one originally and so this time sent the genuine one. The irregularities were spotted and you requested that in addition I send a copy of my passport. This was 100% genuine and matched the 1986 birthdate on my genuine drivers lisence. I understand that this problem is entirely of my own making but at no point have I tried to defraud your casino. In the case of the original casino also I was not stealing money from the casino, merely trying to protect my winnings, stupidly of course. I would be very happy to comply with any additional security checks you would like to do and can send my physical driving liscense if neccessary.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Well guess what the casino said when I forwarded this to them :D

At least I tried!
 
Amusing, I agree, but surely the casino should pay out in this case? The drivers licence (with 1986!) appears genuine and can be backed up by other evidence. So there's no question of the player's identity (previous bad character, perhaps :D). I'm guessing this is probably one of the more questionable casinos that will seize any opportunity available to refuse a withdrawal?
 
Petunia said:
**Vesuvio, i do hope you meant that in jest! **
Click to expand...
No, I'm completely serious (well, 80% at least ;))! I see where you're coming from, but it's pretty clear he wasn't out to defraud the casino and it's just an unfortunate and rather comical error.

I'm sure he's unnecesarily broken terms and conditions so the casino can justify not paying him, but morally if they don't I think that's on the same level as his creative photoshopping!
 
He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??

The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything. "Oops, sorry Mr. Policeman - if I'd known you were there I'd never have done the robbery." LOL.

I'm surprised Bryan even gave this one the time of day, other than blacklisting the player.
 
** I'd have to say, on this ocasion I have to disagree! EDIT: With Vesuvio : END EDIT From the casino's point of view this would be how i'd think:

1) What are you doing with a fake ID in the first place, in MOST countries it is illegal!
2) Are you sorry you got caught, or are you sorry for sending in a fake ID, or all of the above?
3) Why do we have to now spend recourses to try and find out if ALL your other documents are not false AS WELL?
4) WHY did you panic? What made you think that you could be refused your winnings in the first place that forced you to MISTAKENLY send a false id? Your story does not wash - you state clearly that the fake one is kept seperately, so you CHOSE to use it!
5) Have you used the other ID to sign up with another account with the casino (or any other casino) and how do we know that you did not just get mixed up with which fake doc goes with wich account?
6) Rather go, we'll refund your money.

AND if the casinos had any sense, they'd alert the cops too. There are too much of this going on with ID fraud and ID Theft... sorry, I have NO sympathy. YOu lie, you cheat and you defraud... and say "Sorry" and expect to get away with it? Nuh-uh... but that is just me I guess!! **
 
caruso said:
He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??

The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything. "Oops, sorry Mr. Policeman - if I'd known you were there I'd never have done the robbery." LOL.

I'm surprised Bryan even gave this one the time of day, other than blacklisting the player.
Click to expand...

This is something of a red letter week for me - I find myself agreeing with Caruso for the second time!
 
Ok, this is clearly a losing battle, but for what it's worth!

Petunia said:
1) What are you doing with a fake ID in the first place, in MOST countries it is illegal!
Click to expand...
The ID seems to be genuine... except for the date of birth! How can it be illegal to have an altered scan on your computer - yep, sending it is another matter!
Petunia said:
2) Are you sorry you got caught, or are you sorry for sending in a fake ID, or all of the above?
Click to expand...
Well, all of the above presumably! There doesn't appear to have been a reason to send the altered scan.
Petunia said:
3) Why do we have to now spend recourses to try and find out if ALL your other documents are not false AS WELL?
Click to expand...
Hmmm, it's not a huge amount of resources is it? If this reasoning was allowed to wash casinos could get away with anything! Ooops, I forgot they already do...
Petunia said:
4) WHY did you panic? What made you think that you could be refused your winnings in the first place that forced you to MISTAKENLY send a false id? Your story does not wash - you state clearly that the fake one is kept seperately, so you CHOSE to use it!
Click to expand...
He was asked to send ID and sent the wrong scan. That seems like a simple mistake to make (I've sent the wrong scan before, though not a falsified one, I hasten to add!). Of course he might always send the wrong scan and not check the age requirements of the particular casino in question - now that would be truly stupid... but it's not clear if it's the case.
Petunia said:
5) Have you used the other ID to sign up with another account with the casino (or any other casino) and how do we know that you did not just get mixed up with which fake doc goes with wich account?
Click to expand...
The only difference is the date of birth, though, so it'd hardly be suitable for opening another account unless the casino didn't mind having someone with the same name & other details.

Admittedly I can see a case for saying 'once a cheat always a cheat', or something similar, but it's not an entirely convincing reason not to pay someone who played at your casino & who you can't show is someone other than they say they are (the point of these checks - not to assess general character).
 
Once more into the breach...
caruso said:
He sent FAKED ID, is clearly a cheat, and you reckon should be paid??
Click to expand...
Yes, he sent faked ID and clearly has cheated at another casino before. I can't see any intent to defraud at the casino in question, though. I do think he should be paid, though I doubt he's got a cat in hell's chance of it and he's only got himself to blame!
caruso said:
The casino is entirely in the right, and the player is a cheat and an idiot to boot. The fact that his cheating was only revealed by his own incompetence is nothing to do with anything.
Click to expand...
Hard to judge if he's an idiot on the basis of what he sent to Bryan. His incompetence was that he wasn't cheating the casino but cheated himself out of money due to him in this case.

Ok, I'll stop trying to defend what's probably the indefensible now!
 
Assuming the facts as reported by the player are true, I think 100% the casino should pay up.
He is of legal age, and has not deliberately tried to defraud this particular casino - just made a silly error.
Who here has never done something stupid in their lives? :o

Once again, the casino has taken the money, allowed him to play, and only caused a fuss when it's time to pay up.
This is totally out of order (but just what we've come to expect these days).
 
I've also got to agree that the casino should pay if the facts stated are true.

The player hasn't tried to cheat or defraud that casino, they just sent them fake ID as well as real ID. Their admittance for cheating other casinos in the past should not effect this issue.

Still got to be one of the funniest and stupidest things to possibly do though :notworthy
 
Last edited:
I think the casino is completely in the wrong in this situation. The IDs he sent (apart from the fake one!) are obviously genuine and he's offered to send his physical driving license as well. They can't refuse him a payout based on what he's done at other casinos.
I certainly won't be playing here in future.
 
**we would have to agree to disagree. I am not changing my mind. This person committed a CRIME. Accident or no. There is NO EXCUSE for having a FAKE ID in the FIRST place as far as I'm concerned. I have done many stupid things in my life, but NONE of them could end me up in JAIL. At most, i'd expect the casino to give back the deposit and close the account.

Vevusio - you pulled my whole mail apart, and I enjoyed your presentation very much ! :notworthy

I guess its just me then... lol **
 
casinomeister said:
Perhaps I should have a "Pitch a Bitch" of the week. Here's this week's highlight:

Firstly, I'm well aware that this is more likely to end me up in the evil players section or at least the stupid players one. It is a problem of my own making but I feel that it would be reasonable for them to pay out my winnings. Below is the most recent email I sent them after being informed of the reason for my cash in being rejected. The details of the problem are in it.

Hi,

Im writing with regard to a withdrawal I made which has just been refused for reasons of fraud by your payment processors. I am aware of the reason for this and it is my own fault. I sent you two copies of my drivers liscense, one had a birthday of 1982, the other said 1986. Obviously the 1982 birthdate did not match the one listed on my account as it had been doctored by me previously. The reason it was doctored had nothing to do with this withdrawal or with your casino. The doctored copy was stored on my computer under a very similar filename to the genuine one and it was accidentally sent to you. I had doctored the copy a few months previously when dealing with a different casino who for some reason had imposed a minimum age of 21. I wanted to sign up to their casino and didn't think it would do any harm if I changed my birthdate when registering. Being unfamiliar with internet casinos, I wasnt aware that they would likely ask for ID to verify it. I played at their casino and enjoyed it, making a considerable profit. However when asked for ID I panicked thinking they would refuse me my winnings. By playing on photoshop I was able to change the 86 for a 82.

This was obviously a wrong thing to do but I'm sure you can appreciate my worry at being refused my winnings. Unfortunately, this copy was stored on my computer and when I played at your casino I accidentally sent the faked version instead. There was obviouisly no reason to do this as I am both legal age and above the minimum age for your casino. It was careless and when you requested a copy again I was still unaware that I had sent the fake one originally and so this time sent the genuine one. The irregularities were spotted and you requested that in addition I send a copy of my passport. This was 100% genuine and matched the 1986 birthdate on my genuine drivers lisence. I understand that this problem is entirely of my own making but at no point have I tried to defraud your casino. In the case of the original casino also I was not stealing money from the casino, merely trying to protect my winnings, stupidly of course. I would be very happy to comply with any additional security checks you would like to do and can send my physical driving liscense if neccessary.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Well guess what the casino said when I forwarded this to them :D

At least I tried!
Click to expand...


I have to agree that he does not seem to have broken any rules at this casino and should be paid. He is however an idiot and perhaps deserves it.

He didn't do a very good job of explaining himself, but if he had come up with a better explanation for the forged ID; e.g., he was trying to order liquor online, I don't see why this should affect things.

I don't see that he has broken any terms and conditions so they should pay him.

If they don't want to pay him they should refund his deposit (minus perhaps any processing costs), as it does not seem reasonable that they keep his money. If he was not legal to play, his money should be refunded, as age limits are for the protection of the vulnerable, not for the enrichment of the casino.
 
Look at it from this point of view:

In the U.S., a cop stops someone under the age of 21 for speeding. The officer asks for ID and the driver accidentally gives the cop their fake ID, which is a legitimate I.D. with the birthdate altered so the person is over 21.

When the person opens his wallet and gives the fake ID, the officer sees another ID and asks for it. This ID, in fact, is the driver's legitimate ID showing he's under 21.

What does the cop do?

He seizes BOTH IDs (maybe just the fake one, depends on the state) and charges the driver with possessing a fraudulent ID. Heck, even if the driver gave the cop the legitimate ID and the cop merely saw the fake (it wasn't being passed off as legit), in most states, the driver would still be charged.

Forget it, I wholeheartedly agree with Petunia. If you don't have enough common sense about IDs, you shouldn't be playing in online casinos anyway.
 
Petunia said:
**we would have to agree to disagree. I am not changing my mind. This person committed a CRIME. Accident or no. There is NO EXCUSE for having a FAKE ID in the FIRST place as far as I'm concerned. I have done many stupid things in my life, but NONE of them could end me up in JAIL. At most, i'd expect the casino to give back the deposit and close the account. **
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if you're missing the point here, Petunia. He didn't have a fake ID, he had an image of one - is that actually a crime, and in what jurisdiction? Secondly, the casino in question does not have a minimum age of 21, therefore by playing there he broke no rules. They're getting het up about something which is essentially not their problem. He is of legal age for gambling, has abided by their T&Cs and volunteered all the ID they have requested (plus a spurious bit they could have done without). They should definitely pay out - if they choose not to I hope that their name will make it into the public domain, as they are clearly one of those unpleasant casinos/groups that will seize on anything to avoid paying winning players - I wonder if they would have returned his deposit intact had he lost it before this issue came to light? I very much doubt it.

In summary, unless this casino wants to appoint itself as the ID police, they should pay up and shut up.
 
Macgyver said:
Look at it from this point of view:

In the U.S., a cop stops someone under the age of 21 for speeding. The officer asks for ID and the driver accidentally gives the cop their fake ID, which is a legitimate I.D. with the birthdate altered so the person is over 21.

When the person opens his wallet and gives the fake ID, the officer sees another ID and asks for it. This ID, in fact, is the driver's legitimate ID showing he's under 21.

What does the cop do?

He seizes BOTH IDs (maybe just the fake one, depends on the state) and charges the driver with possessing a fraudulent ID. Heck, even if the driver gave the cop the legitimate ID and the cop merely saw the fake (it wasn't being passed off as legit), in most states, the driver would still be charged.

Forget it, I wholeheartedly agree with Petunia. If you don't have enough common sense about IDs, you shouldn't be playing in online casinos anyway.
Click to expand...

This is totally different situation to the one you compared it to. The player was not 'speeding' at the casino in hand. They did nothing wrong there.

A better situation to compare this to is someone going in to a shop to buy some cigarettes, when asked their age they say they are 18. When asked for ID to prove this they accidenlty give them their fake ID fof getting beers in the US that showed they were 21.

They apologised, explained the situation and pulled out their real ID. Although as dodgy as the situation is they should be given the cigarettes because they've provided genuine ID for the product they wanted.

The bottom line is has the player broken any of the casino's rules? I'd be surprised if by doing this they had.
 
Some of you need to take a reality check. The document was faked. There is nothing more needed to establish the rights of the case. I'll take a stab in the dark that the casino in question has a condition stating that supplying fake ID documents will result in forfeiture of funds. This has nothing to do with the fact that of the twenty fake IDs available there happens to be ONE genuine one - the document was faked and the cashin is forfeited.

The fact that some posters can see RIGHT for the player and WRONG for the casino is quite flabbergasting. The casino has correctly disallowed a fraudulent cashin. The casino has acted correctly.

In addition to the reality check some of you need, you need to ALSO learn to see the wider picture and the implications for the rest of us here: casinos must be allowed the right to act correctly, be it pro-player or "anti"-player in terms of receipt or forfeiture of funds. If the casino is only allowed to act "correctly" when "correctly" is in the player's favour, and however right their "anti"-player stance may be they STILL find themselves up against it, then there is absolutely NO reason for the casino to cooperate at any time.

In order for casinos to be expected to pay honest players, they must also be expected to deny winnings to fraudulent players. You cannot have it both ways. If you expect to have fraudulent winnings paid, you must also accept that they may deny your legitimate winnings.

It works absolutely both ways.

Do you understand the damage caused by fraud, the damage DIRECTLY to players' own interests? We have to jump through ever more self-perpetuating hoops to verify down to the last detail we are who we claim to be, and bonuses have got tightened up to the extent that even the most experienced player can come unstuck by failing to read the last line of the fine print on page twenty seven of the terms and conditions and many, many have simply gone for good - casinos have been led to the inescapeable conclusion that they're more trouble than they're worth. A large part of that is down to PLAYER FRAUD.

Fraud - casino AND PLAYER - needs to be swiftly and cleanly dealt with if you want an industry you can function safely within.
 
caruso said:
Some of you need to take a reality check.
Click to expand...

OK, I just did a reality check. I still think the casino should pay him.

This guy defrauded casino 1. He then sent the wrong image to casino 2. Casino 2 is keeping his money.

What in god's name did they do to deserve keeping that money? I could buy it if they were going to disburse his winnings to the defrauded casino #1. But they aren't going to. He gambled there, he won, he abided by their terms and conditions. He just sent the wrong .jpg from his computer.

What he "deserves" is to not get paid. What is "right" is that he be paid.
 
Dirk Diggler said:
This is totally different situation to the one you compared it to. The player was not 'speeding' at the casino in hand. They did nothing wrong there.
Click to expand...

Now you're holding up the wrong aspect of my example to further prove your own.

It's not the reason why the person was stopped ... it's the simple fact that he possessed the fraudulent ID. Like I said, just the simple possession of a fake ID can get someone charged criminally in some states.

And I'll lastly disagree and say that the player DID do something wrong "at the casino in hand" ... namely he passed a fake ID as real. Never mind that he tried to correct the situation, he screwed up in that first sending.
 
I agree 99.99% with what you say - however the player has not commited fraud at THIS casino (i.e. never purposefully provided them with incorrect information in order to gain).

If you had accidently sent fake ID to a casino that you had for whatever reason that shouldn't automatically forfeit your winnings. For example I personally had fake ID for a few years when I was younger for the use of getting into clubs and bars. If I'd accidently faxed this to a casino instead of my real ID would this mean I should have my winnings forfeited?

In my opinion no it shouldn't - just becasue you've commited fraud at some point in your life doesn't mean you should be punished for it here.
 
bpb said:
OK, I just did a reality check. I still think the casino should pay him.

This guy defrauded casino 1. He then sent the wrong image to casino 2. Casino 2 is keeping his money.

What in god's name did they do to deserve keeping that money? I could buy it if they were going to disburse his winnings to the defrauded casino #1. But they aren't going to. He gambled there, he won, he abided by their terms and conditions. He just sent the wrong .jpg from his computer.

What he "deserves" is to not get paid. What is "right" is that he be paid.
Click to expand...
100% agree with you here. Our friend caruso is getting het up about fraud, etc, from a largely selfish perspective (ie allegedly it will make it harder for him, and all of us, to play in the future).

However, we're not talking about anyone defrauding this casino. He never claimed to this casino to be 21. If he'd sent an image of his partner's ID by accident would that be fraud? Essentially, what images the player has on his PC and might accidentally send to the casino is irrelevant, and certainly does not constitute defrauding this casino. This casino has no legal right to deny this player his deposit or winnings. Sure, they can make him jump through some more hoops to prove his identity, but if he's able to do this then they should pay him in full.

I agree that fraud is a bad thing, although someone lying about their age is something I can't get quite so exercised about - I've been doing that since I was old enough to get served in pubs, as have most normal young males. If he'd altered his ID to take on someone else's identity with the intention of playing multiple signup bonuses then I'd be far more damning. Get things in perspective caruso, et al.
 
Macgyver said:
It's not the reason why the person was stopped ... it's the simple fact that he possessed the fraudulent ID. Like I said, just the simple possession of a fake ID can get someone charged criminally in some states.
Click to expand...
I wasn't aware that any particular casino was appointed as policeman for the whole industry. I'm not sure whether the casino in question, nor the player, is located in any of the states you cite - are you?

And I don't believe he has fake ID - simply an image of a genuine ID which has been manipulated. It's a small but important distinction.
 
arbster said:
I wasn't aware that any particular casino was appointed as policeman for the whole industry. I'm not sure whether the casino in question, nor the player, is located in any of the states you cite - are you?

And I don't believe he has fake ID - simply an image of a genuine ID which has been manipulated. It's a small but important distinction.
Click to expand...

Once again, this was an example of how a fake (or altered ID, I'm not going to argue semantics) ID can get someone into trouble in the real world.

I've heard people make that "small but important distinction" you mention and they still got charged criminally. Are you saying that the Internet world shouldn't or doesn't mimic, in at least some part, the real world?

Of course, we all know the Intarweb is serious business! :eek2:
 
KasinoKing said:
Playing where? :confused: I didn't see the casino name posted anywhere.

I would bet it's a Rip-off The Gamblers one though! :machinegu
Click to expand...


the bottom line is that there are certain casinos who look for any excuse not to pay players. This is a part of their business model. Fell $6 short of their wagering requirement? Hmm, rather than telling you we will just cancel your bonus..... Or, let's delay your payout for 2 weeks, just because we can.

Problem with your id even though you haven't broken any rules, great, let's keep all your money (but if you'd lost it, there's no way we would have refunded your deposit if you turned out to be underage). These people construe the rules for their own benefit, and nickel and dime customers to shave 0.1% off their costs.

There are others where 'the customer is king' prevails.

Guess which ones are the largest have the best reputation, and end up making less money in the long run.

There is nothing legally wrong with the first kind, but let's face it they suck for the player, and so these places end up with nothing but unprofitable bonus hunters, because the normal people that make mistakes would prefer to play at a place where if they make a mistake they WON'T lose all their money.
 
One thing to keep in mind, the casinos get hit by fraudsters daily. Caruso is totally correct in stating that fraud has made it much more difficult for legitimate players to play legitimately. Most casinos have a zero tolerance for player fraud or attempts at fraud.

Zero tolerance = speak to the hand.

The casino requested the ID and received a Photoshopped copy (I love that verb). Right then and there the party was over. The casino had no IDea :D that there were more legitimate IDs enroute. By this time it was too late. The player received his/her deposit back - end of story.
 
bpb said:
OK, I just did a reality check. I still think the casino should pay him.
.
Click to expand...

Lets do another reality check.

1. This person has admitted he is quite prepared to commit fraud against internet casinos.

2. He has gone beyond being prepared to commit fraud and actually done it at at least one casino ( he got away with it but of course this wouldn't have any influence on whether he would or has done it again surely? :rolleyes: )

3. He committed fraud against the casino currently in question by sending in faked id. He says it was accidental ( when he was caught ).

4. Do con men in general sound plausible even when they are questioned about their activities?

Are members saying that casinos should not be allowed to take account of behaviour at other casinos and that they have no right to disbar proven and admitted fraudsters?

People in my country who cause trouble in a pub are quite often barred
from entering other pubs in their town (and if they get in and are subsequently detected they are ejected) even though they might not have caused trouble in that particular establishment. Are you saying that that is unacceptable as well?

Commit fraud, get caught, accept the consequencies!

If I was running a casino I wouldn't touch this bloke with a bargepole.

Caruso is quite right about how this ultimately impacts on all the genuine people here.

Mitch
 
mitch said:
3. He committed fraud against the casino currently in question by sending in faked id. He says it was accidental ( when he was caught ).
Click to expand...
Err... why would he fraudulently send them manipulated ID which didn't match the details he'd registered at the casino with?
 
casinomeister said:
The player received his/her deposit back - end of story.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, he did get his deposit back, he should consider himself lucky and delete that Photochopped ID from his system before he gets himself in this trouble again.
 
casinomeister said:
One thing to keep in mind, the casinos get hit by fraudsters daily. Caruso is totally correct in stating that fraud has made it much more difficult for legitimate players to play legitimately. Most casinos have a zero tolerance for player fraud or attempts at fraud.

Zero tolerance = speak to the hand.

The casino requested the ID and received a Photoshopped copy (I love that verb). Right then and there the party was over. The casino had no IDea :D that there were more legitimate IDs enroute. By this time it was too late. The player received his/her deposit back - end of story.
Click to expand...
I guess that's their prerogative. Is it safe now to publish the name of the casino so that I can avoid them? Right or wrong, I personally won't play at a casino or a group that uses such tenuous excuses to avoid payment. It's the start of the slippery slope, in my book.

If they'd paid up then banned him, that would have been different. He didn't defraud them to win the money, and I'm positive they wouldn't have refunded him his losses if he'd been cashing out less than his deposit.
 
mitch said:
Caruso is quite right about how this ultimately impacts on all the genuine people here.
Click to expand...
And terrorists make it harder for normal citizens vis a vi ID cards, security checks, etc, but genuine citizens really have nothing to worry about there either. I hate to see self-interest getting in the way of an objective look at the right and wrongs of a case.
 
The casino wins, and the guy wont get paid. Nothing he does will sway that fact... but just as I've said before, here's the point of view that the casinos take that really irks me. Anyone.. of any age.. from almost anywhere.. can open a casino account and make deposits and play their hearts out without any problems or background checks as long as they lose. The casinos don't care if it's a 16 year old kid ( a 16 yr. old kid that lied on the sign-up page about his age) making deposits as long as he/she doesn't try and cash-in. Go to make a cash-in, and then you can be sure that everything in your life and history are scanned with a fine toothed comb looking for any loophole possible so as to forfeit payment. This kind of scrutiny and proof of identity should be done right after the player makes his FIRST deposit... and he shouldn't be allowed to make a second deposit until all of the background checks and identity proofing are complete, and the player has gotten a written statement saying that he/she has passed the security checks and is free to play. I know many people who worry like a bastard after they win because they know the casino is going to try and find a way to withhold payment. To try and find something that's minutely wrong, and if you look hard enough, you can find errors somewhere with most people. It's just so one-sided, and I'm tired of seeing it all the time.
 
arbster said:
and I'm positive they wouldn't have refunded him his losses if he'd been cashing out less than his deposit.
Click to expand...

Members have said this before on other threads.

Are you joking?

1 Deposit fraudulently, win and get away with it.

2 Deposit fraudulently, win, get caught, get at least your deposit money back.

3 Deposit fraudulently, lose, get caught, get your deposit money back.

4 Deposit fraudulently, lose, don't get caught, confess to casino and get your deposit money back.

On reflection do you wish to reconsider your statement Arbster?

Mitch
 
By the way... when I signed up at 32RED and some others a few years ago, I sent a copy of my driver's license,a copy of a utility bill, and a couple other items which were already scanned and saved on my computer BEFORE I ever made my first deposit, and I asked them if everything looked okay, and within minutes I had an approval that everything looked fine, and I was playing within an hour of signing up, and I had no worries about if I was going to get paid or not... so don't tell me that my posting above is an unreasonable solution.
 
mitch said:
1 Deposit fraudulently, win and get away with it.

2 Deposit fraudulently, win, get caught, get at least your deposit money back.

3 Deposit fraudulently, lose, get caught, get your deposit money back.

4 Deposit fraudulently, lose, don't get caught, confess to casino and get your deposit money back.

On reflection do you wish to reconsider your statement Arbster?
Click to expand...
Nope. I wish to remind you that he didn't deposit fraudulently.
 
mitch said:
Members have said this before on other threads.

Are you joking?

1 Deposit fraudulently, win and get away with it.

2 Deposit fraudulently, win, get caught, get at least your deposit money back.

3 Deposit fraudulently, lose, get caught, get your deposit money back.

4 Deposit fraudulently, lose, don't get caught, confess to casino and get your deposit money back.

On reflection do you wish to reconsider your statement Arbster?

Mitch
Click to expand...

Where was the fraudulent deposit? Because he's underaged?
Cash is cash, doesn't matter how old you are.

Besides, HE'S NOT UNDERAGED AT THE CASINO IN QUESTION.

I'm really lost as to where the fraud is in this case. He certainly played underaged at ANOTHER casino. That's against the T&C, but is that fraud?

After a few more reality checks, I've decided that this casino is the scum of the earth. They did not do the right thing.
 
Macgyver said:
Are you saying that the Internet world shouldn't or doesn't mimic, in at least some part, the real world?
Click to expand...
Whether it should or not is neither here nor there - its doesn't. We are talking about an e-mail being used to deny a player their winnings. E-mail is insecure; its use for the transmission of identity documents is entirely inappropriate to begin with.

The casino cannot prove nor should they rely upon the image having been sent by the player. The e-mail itself could easily have been faked by someone else or intercepted and modified by another person. That could happen to any of us at any time; would everyone here be happy to lose their winnings as a result? The whole basis of using e-mail as evidence is unsound.

Furthermore, why did the casino request a copy of his passport and then still refuse to pay up when it was apparently in good order? It sounds like they obviously had no intention of paying up even before requesting it. Perhaps they realised their case was weak and chose to gamble that the player was not real. Seemingly they lost and their grapes are sour.

They should do the decent thing and pay the guy. Afterall, his only known sin is to have once claimed not to be a minor.
 
arbster said:
I hate to see self-interest getting in the way of an objective look at the right and wrongs of a case.
Click to expand...

Aimed at me, right? Are you kidding? My take was aimed at myself, other players and everyone else in the business, additional to which everything I've said has been based on the facts of the matter as stated - and you call this "self-interest" and implicitly "non-factual"??

Do you have any idea how many goddamned player cases I've supported over the years? Are you aware that I have actually helped players get their RIGHTFULLY-owed money? That I've been offered PAYMENT for such services, and that I've REFUSED?

And you dare to question my MOTIVES and you call me SELFISH??

Get real - that won't wash with anyone. My track record can speak for itself.

Fraudulent documentation was supplied. One can speculate as to the reason for the possession of the fraudulent documentation in the first place - and in the circumstances it would be a valid speculation and certainly WOULD be a relevant consideration for any subsequent case brought by the player - but that isn't required in this instance.

Fraudulent documentation was supplied; the casino cannot be at fault for following their own rules, and to somehow twist this into casino culpability and "poor badly done by player" is entirely ridiculous.
 
caruso said:
Aimed at me, right?
Click to expand...
No, aimed at everyone here who's saying fraud is bad because it makes things harder for the rest of us; this player has demonstrated a propensity to commit fraud (not committed fraud in this case, remember) and therefore I shall not support this individual here, even though they are in the right.

caruso said:
Do you have any idea how many goddamned player cases I've supported over the years? Are you aware that I have actually helped players get their RIGHTFULLY-owed money? That I've been offered PAYMENT for such services, and that I've REFUSED?

And you dare to question my MOTIVES and you call me SELFISH??
Click to expand...
Calm down. I know you contribute tremendously to the forum, and the gaming community as a whole, which is why I'm disappointed with your stance on this case. I called it "self-interest", referring not specifically to you - selfish is a very different thing, and you're clearly not that as you so forcefully argue.

caruso said:
Fraudulent documentation was supplied. One can speculate as to the reason for the possession of the fraudulent documentation in the first place - and in the circumstances it would be a valid speculation and certainly WOULD be a relevant consideration for any subsequent case brought by the player - but that isn't required in this instance.

Fraudulent documentation was supplied; the casino cannot be at fault for following their own rules, and to somehow twist this into casino culpability and "poor badly done by player" is entirely ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Does this casino (if we knew which one it was) have specific rules governing the case where the incorrect (let's not say fraudulent, as he wasn't trying to defraud them through supplying these documents) documents are supplied? I'm pretty sure the T&Cs don't include such a clause. The player supplied the valid documents when his error was identified and these documents corroborated the information he had provided when he signed up and deposited his money. He has also shown willingness to cooperate with any further checks they may wish to perform.

As I said at the beginning, this player has not defrauded this casino. He has demonstrated that he may not be the kind of player they want at their casino, and it is within their rights to ban him. Similarly, bonus hunters are not the kind of player casinos want around, but you and many others have villified casinos which tried to renege on paying out winnings where they consider a bonus to have been "abused" (despite the player meeting the T&Cs of the offer).
 
Last edited:
arbster said:
So long as I can ensure you're not if I'm ever wrongly accused of doing something.
Click to expand...

"I say leave them on the forum but badge them as fraudsters if they've genuinely tried to defraud a casino, rather than simply "abused" a bonus by playing to the letter of the T&Cs."
Arbster

So at least you think this bloke should be listed as a fraudster on this forum
by his own admission.

Presumably you hold this view so that other members can view statements by such badged members with a pinch of salt.

Well I am with you here Arbster I don't take his statements at face value.

Why do you? He admits to lying when it suits him after all.

Mitch
 
mitch said:
So at least you think this bloke should be listed as a fraudster on this forum by his own admission.

Presumably you hold this view so that other members can view statements by such badged members with a pinch of salt.

Well I am with you here Arbster I don't take his statements at face value.

Why do you? He admits to lying when it suits him after all.
Click to expand...
You've lost me now. Are you saying that the only reason you think this player shouldn't get paid is because you think they're lying about something? Does that mean that if you were convinced he was telling the truth (however ill-advised his past actions) you would be arguing that he should receive his money?
 
winbig72 said:
Had they never caught this, would he have even brought it up? Hell no. If he would have went to them first and told his story instead of them catching it, things *may* have been different.
Click to expand...
:what: As he wasn't aware he'd sent the ID with the altered digit, and didn't intend to send it, why on earth would there be anything to bring up? A few people posting on here should go back and read the e-mail he sent to the casino. It's fairly eloquent and I can't see any plausible explanation for his actions other than what he says. What's the benefit in lying about his age at a casino where it's not an issue!?

Arbster, I agree with your posts but I wouldn't say there's any evidence this player is the sort of player casinos don't want. That would be like saying pubs don't want drinkers who've ever been caught trying to buy drinks underage (or acquired a forged NUS card or something similar). I think we all know that's not the case ;) It should be remembered the underage rule here is to protect the player not the casino.

It's good to see this thread has switched around a bit since this morning. I thought I was in a morally deviant minority of one for a while :D I still think the casino is within its rights not to pay out, but I certainly wouldn't choose to play at a casino that uses such a technicality to retain winnings.
 

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