Zero risk Baccarat?

[KasinoKing]

I’ve heard of ‘no-risk’ Baccarat, which is why most casinos ban it from WR.
But I have never played the game myself, so I am wondering how it can be played with absolute zero risk?

The Wizard’s site says Player pays even money, and Banker pays 19/20. So betting on both can not be done at zero risk (especially as there is quite a high chance of ties as well).

So how do you do it?

[caruso]

You don't.

"Zero risk" is casino-speak for games with opposing bets, like player/ banker, red/black, pass/don't pass. One bet wins, the other loses, hence casinos think this means playing "no risk".

Trying to enlighten them why this is incorrect is a complete waste of time.

[GrandMaster]

I’ve heard of ‘no-risk’ Baccarat, which is why most casinos ban it from WR.
But I have never played the game myself, so I am wondering how it can be played with absolute zero risk?

The Wizard’s site says Player pays even money, and Banker pays 19/20. So betting on both can not be done at zero risk (especially as there is quite a high chance of ties as well).

So how do you do it?

Ties push in baccarat, it is not like roulette, where you can lose your bet if you bet both black and red but don't cover 0. If you bet 20 units on both banker and player, you lose 1 unit if the banker wins, otherwise you get your money back. A more sophisticated bonus abuser would bet 40 units on banker, 39 on player, this way he would lose 1 unit if either banker or player won, and he would get all his money back in case of a tie.

[MrWolf]

I’ve heard of ‘no-risk’ Baccarat, which is why most casinos ban it from WR.
But I have never played the game myself, so I am wondering how it can be played with absolute zero risk?

The Wizard’s site says Player pays even money, and Banker pays 19/20. So betting on both can not be done at zero risk (especially as there is quite a high chance of ties as well).

So how do you do it?

The problem is that the casinos don't actually understand the mathematics of the games they offer. In the early days of promos, where WR were less defined and you could get away with wagering one or two times your bonus and deposit, some people did exactly this 'no risk' betting, allowing them to keep most of the bonus. So simultaneious bets on banker/player, red/black, pass/don't pass.The fact that these games are banned by virtually all casinos still for sign up promos is a legacy from the early days, even though WR have now reached ridiculous proportions where this sort of 'no risk' strategy wouldn't be worthwhile.

[Gluten]

The problem is that the casinos don't actually understand the mathematics of the games they offer.

This is a very depressing accusation - especially if it was untrue. Sadly it is not.
Only the top-dogs in the industry seems to have a grasp of what games they actually offer. If one did not know better, one would think alot of these new casinos just copied their T&C's from other casino without even looking at them!

On the subject of baccarat and other silly prohibited games like roulette. These games will all make you lose in the long run if you bet "both sides". The only game I can think of where u can break almost even is craps - but that's the game with all them numbers and different calculations so I have no idea - but I'm not a casino operator so that's ok

[KasinoKing]

The problem is that the casinos don't actually understand the mathematics of the games they offer. In the early days of promos, where WR were less defined and you could get away with wagering one or two times your bonus and deposit, some people did exactly this 'no risk' betting, allowing them to keep most of the bonus. So simultaneous bets on banker/player, red/black, pass/don't pass.The fact that these games are banned by virtually all casinos still for sign up promos is a legacy from the early days, even though WR have now reached ridiculous proportions where this sort of 'no risk' strategy wouldn't be worthwhile.

That's what I kinda figured.
So all those casinos that ban Baccarat & Roulette, yet allow low edge games like BJ & VP in WR, are in fact screwing themselves. Good!

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

[sharpgambler]

The problem is that the casinos don't actually understand the mathematics of the games they offer

They understand the mathematics and that's why they cannot offer a 200 or 300% match bonus without imposing restricted rules. The bonus is intended to capture new clients and not for the player to deposit $100 and to withdraw $300 without risking seriously the money.

These games will all make you lose in the long run if you bet "both sides"

What they mean with "no risk wagers" is "no low variance bets". Betting on red and black at the same time or on 1 single number on roulette has exactly the same implicit payout. On European Roulette you are expected to lose $2.7 on every $100 played. The implicit payout is 97.3% no matter the bet you make. You can bet on red/black at the same time or on a single number. The expected payout is always 97.3%. What is different is the variance of the game. When you bet on red/black at the same time the variance is near 0. When you bet on 1 single number the variance is high.

This means that when you're playing defensively because your goal is only to try to keep the money at the level it is, what would be the case of a player who receives a $200 bonus with his $100 deposit, the best bet would be the red/black at the same time. If the wager requirements are, for example, 10X deposit plus bonus, you have to bet $300 X 10 =$3000. If you play on roulette you're expected to lose $81 with these wager requirements. In a low variance game you will lose almost exactly that value and will be able to make a profit of more than $100 with the bonus. On a high variance game, no one knows what the exact final outcome will be.

In other words, and like I said before on another forum:

You have a river and a man who wants to cross to the other side. He is 1.80 meters tall and the river is on mean 1.50 meters deep. The man can't swim.

What means this?

Oh man, you're expected to cross the river without problems. Expected ???!?

Well he is expected to cross but this is not certain. Why? Because saying that the river is 1.50 meters deep on mean does not say anything about the exact deep of the river on the place the man is expected to cross it. It may be the case the river is 3.00 meters deeps on that place and still being 1.50 meters deep on mean. If the variance is high , it is very likely.

So, the man would be best of with a 1.50 meters deep river with low variance.

The expected payout is a mean and the variance is the degree of uncertainty of that mean (or volatility). If playing you are on mean expected to make a profit after fulfilling the wager requirements, then the casino would want to increase the degree of uncertainty of that result. that means prohibiting games with low variance.

[KasinoKing]

If playing you are on mean expected to make a profit after fulfilling the wager requirements, then the casino would want to increase the degree of uncertainty of that result. that means prohibiting games with low variance.

Nice answer.
But why do they ban Baccarat & Roulette, yet allow Blackjack & Video Poker - games with much lower house edge & variance?

Swim your way out of that!

(Rivers are VERY dangerous - especially in poker! )

Anyway, if bonus hunters wanted to use these games to hang on to as much of the bonus as possible, they might just as well only bet on one side (eg. Red or Player). If the casino is dealing a fair game, the probability is their losses would be exactly the same as betting on both sides. And they could even get a lucky run and make a profit!
Oh no! I forgot. Can't do that. That would be gambling!

[Oebro]

My guess is that it has nothing to do with house edge. It is to avoid 'no risk' bets. Even though the player might actually loose, he will never win more than the bonus and is therefore by difinition an abuser.

Roulette, baccarat and craps are the only casino games where it's possible to place 'no risk' bets. Intead of reviewing each and every game of roulette, baccarat and craps to look for no risk wagers the casinos just bans these games.

Either that, or the casinos knows that bj and vp takes some skill and some training to get the lower HE. This doesn't make it to easy for a newbie to become a bonus hunter.

Would be nice to hear some casino rep's explanation.

[caruso]

Sorry, "Sharpgambler" (LMAO), but your post is a litany of nonsense and misconception.

The reason casinos don't offer "300% bonuses without rules" is because they would go under. They would, however, go under slower if they made their promos roulette/bacc/craps "no risk" only, because they'd lose less. Variance, as a short-termism, is a non-issue unless they have nothing in the bank. And if they have nothing in the bank, they will go under just the same, no-risk play or any other kind. Variance is nothing to do with anything other than in the clueless worlds of the majority of casino operators and, it seems, one or two webmasters. It is a short-termism.

I recall talking to "Alan" at Forty Plus a while back. I asked him the same question and got the same "no risk" answer - followed by the following gem: that he had "substantial mathematical qualifications" and I would just have to take his word for it. I, and a few others, gave him a couple of free lessons - at which point he promised to go away and think about it a bit. LOL. I would imagine most other operators believe themselves qualified thus, hence the continuance of the "no risk" rule, long after it became irrelevant.

Long may they continue to prohibit play on those games that noone in their right minds would play.