player's union discussion

[jetset]

QUOTE We should consider forming a players union. Any interest?UNQUOTE

Stanford, I judging by posts over at the other site I think that is what Bethug and a few others are trying to do.

[jen]

Originally Posted by casinomeister

but they failed to realize that the casino software can identify your computer.

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

[Petunia]

** Hey everyone... Just had a quick read through here. I have noticed a trend, and as I am no tech buff, I have to say, again, I notice certain things about posters and the such. IT would seem that there are a lot of complaints about differant casinos as a brand new 'scam' has entered the market. It has nothing to do with money, or wagering, or even payments. I think, honestly, that there are players (or one in particular) that is crying wolf all the time AND get away with it at best. I am not willing to get involved,and as a betting person, let me tell you something... If there is smoke there is fire, but be careful as to who started it! "

[padanian]

Originally Posted by jen

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

If true, all this casinos could be taken to court, at least by players living in the European Union (at least in countries where online gambling is legal). This practice would be as illegal as opening multiple accounts.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by jetset

QUOTE We should consider forming a players union. Any interest?UNQUOTE

Stanford, I judging by posts over at the other site I think that is what Bethug and a few others are trying to do.

Hi Stanford and Jet, Yes I'm interested in something of that nature. I was racking my brain this morning trying to figure out where I had heard "Player's Union" before but then as you've accurately stated Jet, I remembered that Bethug and m249 pretty much have the rights on the name Players Union tied up.

I'm going to hav't to take a look at their site this afternoon I've been meaning to do that but these days are just not long enough to do everything. Have a good one.

[Stanford]

Meister, Jetset, Cypher -

I really have something different in mind. I would like a more formal organazation that would give some thought to what a player friendly casino should be. I want an organazation somewhat like eCOGRA but on the players side. More than just deriving principals from complaints, I would like to give some serious thought to priniciples and practices and then apply them when complaints arise.

I would not mind the organazation then awarding a seal of approval and maintaining a warning list.

This is different than what we have now. What we have now are watchdogs each of which have their own thresholds of when they get involved and whose criteria for action is undefined and subjective.

One thing I would like to see the Union do is fan out to all the forums when a problem arrises and make sure it gets exposure. So I anticipate that members would be active - not much different than picket lines in the non cyber world.

I am not sure if there is anything this agressive going on. It would take some work. But why portals are organanized and casinos are organized, players are not.

Just thinking out loud.

Stanford.

[jetset]

Setting up something like eCOGRA is not only expensive, but a considerable research and organisational undertaking with ongoing activity that eats up time even with full time staffing, and anyone who can do so successfully would have my total respect, believe me.

From a personal perspective, having been burned twice in OPA 1 and OPA 2 by corrupt *leaders* I would decline involvement in favour of helping where I can. It's a huge amount of work for very little thanks and even personal attacks on occasion from the very people who have been helped.

Getting folks to act in concert and in a disciplined manner is also not always easy, particularly when bonus blandishments are being dangled in front of their noses.

I don't personally believe a player body on the scale, influence and sophistication of eCOGRA is possible, but as I said anyone who proves me wrong will have my admiration, respect and support.

Perhaps lowering the sights for a less ambitious approach could be a useful alternative...maybe even pulling in existing respected watchdogs?

[bethug]

Standford, it sounds good, but it will not work.

For one alot of forums are owned by casinos and some are so i debt by others they delete negative post. I visit many forums, and if you post something subsupect. The will delete.

I make more enough money and got everything i want, so I cant be bought, I just mainly want peace, but that will not happen.

Also at the union , the players have a voice. If we all come togehter casinos and other gambling operations will not , try to do rogue behaivor, sorry for my spelling.

[Stanford]

Originally Posted by jetset

Setting up something like eCOGRA is not only expensive, but a considerable research and organisational undertaking with ongoing activity that eats up time even with full time staffing, and anyone who can do so successfully would have my total respect, believe me.

Point taken. There is some difference in that a players union would not need the audit function. We have the players. And we have the eCOGRA template as a take off point for developing defined standards. Seems to me the key to a real players union is developing a solid player base and defined standards.

Originally Posted by jetset

From a personal perspective, having been burned twice in OPA 1 and OPA 2 by corrupt *leaders* I would decline involvement in favour of helping where I can. It's a huge amount of work for very little thanks and even personal attacks on occasion from the very people who have been helped.

I don't blame you for that. I think the player base would need to choose the leaders. But I don't think there would be many to pick from. Developing standards, putting them out for comment, and conducting member votes would certainly be a lot of work. Doable? Not sure.

Originally Posted by jetset

Getting folks to act in concert and in a disciplined manner is also not always easy, particularly when bonus blandishments are being dangled in front of their noses.

I think that is probably right. But a players seal could be worth something. For one thing, it would not be as expensive as eCOGRA and for another it would more easily cross software platforms. Actually, Cryptologic casinos would have easily acheived a players seal whereas they are not applying for the eCOGRA seal. The expansion of eCOGRA beyond MicroGaming and CON seems painfully slow.

The union could have alternate ways to get a seal - either a commitment from Management to uphold the standards with a passing vote from the player reps or simply a member initiative. I think the positive reinforcement would be more important for a players union.

I could see how resolution of grievances could lead to pulling the seal, but I think the awarding would be more important.

Originally Posted by jetset

I don't personally believe a player body on the scale, influence and sophistication of eCOGRA is possible, but as I said anyone who proves me wrong will have my admiration, respect and support.

I certainly believe it is possible and would be great for the industry. But I think it very unlikely. I am pessimistic.

Originally Posted by jetset

Perhaps lowering the sights for a less ambitious approach could be a useful alternative...maybe even pulling in existing respected watchdogs?

I think so. I am not sure the best way to incorporate them.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Meister could make something like this happen tomorrow. When I was in Las Vegas a couple of years back I discussed it with a member of Anthony Curtis's organization - it would been a great way for him to break into the online world and it would have given the organization instant respectability.

I certainly see all the player forums as part of the natural base for recruiting members and for disseminating information. And watchdogs would make great player reps because they have earned player trust.

If would be foolish to ignore the watchdogs. I just don't know that they would want to participate. I don't even know if we could get the really dedicated players. I remain pessimistic. But just a tad hopeful.

Stanford.

[Stanford]

Originally Posted by bethug

Also at the union , the players have a voice. If we all come togehter casinos and other gambling operations will not , try to do rogue behaivor, sorry for my spelling.

Hi bethug,

I tried to get to your site but I could not get past the coolboard registration. I did read the forum though.

Stanford.