Attitude To Reverse Withdrawal (2012)

[Simmo!]

In 2008, I set up a poll to measure attitudes to reverse Withdrawal. A lot has happened since then and a few threads recently have dealt with the subject so I am doing a new one to see if there is any shift in attitude or indeed even if it is a major factor.

I'm not good with it myself as I have always been drawn in to anything I like (especially chocolate...mmmm!) but at least these days I recognise my weaknesses better and one of those preventative measures is to avoid casinos that allow reversing. I know I bang on about it but actually think that any operator who truly regards themselves as "responsible" will allow any player to request it's removal.

In fact I am surprised that Alderney, Isle Of Man and other jurisdictions don't write this as a condition into licensing. I think if they really understood addiction they probably would but I (somewhat cynically?) suspect there is a compromise - or at least a very grey line - between business and social responsibility in some places.

Edited To Add: I realise Americans have no choice but you are allowed to vote as you would if you had a choice - the poll is all about attitudes

 

[IanO]

I'd just like to say that I feel there is a world of difference between sites that offer a reversal period, and those that actually encourage it.

I dont much mind if there is a reversal period, as if I dont have the willpower to wait a couple of days then I feel thats my problem more than the casinos, but when a casino starts pushing or suggesting I reverse it (possibly even with some type of incentive) I feel thats a bit off. Much like being followed around a store by a 'helpful' clerk (''Can I help you buy something today sir?'' ''No, you cant... I'm capable of shopping on my own thanks'' - Not a huge deal but still can be a bit off putting)

Allowing people to reverse rather than wait and re-deposit saves the casino time and money, and can be quite handy for players who may have re-deposited anyway because they were so happy the wd was flushed and rushed through. Multiply this by lots of players, and the savings can be considerable, allowing the casino to drect more of their budget to bonuses and prizes. I know thats not always where the spare money goes, but you see my point I'm sure.

I'll be watching with interest to see what everyone else thinks.

 

[Seventh777]

Improvise this option by all means, but it should be entirely down to the player to use it or not.

 

[Simmo!]

Allowing people to reverse rather than wait and re-deposit saves the casino time and money, and can be quite handy for players who may have re-deposited anyway because they were so happy the wd was flushed and rushed through. Multiply this by lots of players, and the savings can be considerable, allowing the casino to drect more of their budget to bonuses and prizes. I know thats not always where the spare money goes, but you see my point I'm sure.

With the cost of processing these days I can totally see the business sense in offering it but ...

...it should be entirely down to the player to use it or not.

...if you mean it should be down to the player to choose whether or not to have it removed, then I agree.

I never really understood why a player regards it useful - can't they just leave the balance in their account if they don't want to cash out?

 

[Surasanji]

Sometimes I feel like a nut... Sometimes I don't!

With the issues I have withdrawing (and depositing) at times, due to my country, having the option to Reverse is quite useful for me if I'd like to play some more- On larger wins, I request a flush!

Little wins, easy to reverse!

Best of both worlds, for me, at least.

And some casinos will offer you bonuses/comp points/whatever with a reversal. So, I can continue to play if I so desire- with what amounts to a much larger 'deposit' than I am normally able to afford and reap the specific benefit of something similar to a deposit.

With the manual flush option, I never need to worry about a late-night drunken mistake!

 

[conker]

I have to agree with IanO in that reverse time is not really an issue until I am actually encouraged by a casino to go back in and gamble those funds. There are too many casinos that put profit (greed) ahead of ethics. What they don't realise is that genuine long term players are going to be turned off by this sort of behaviour. So once again it comes down to short-minded tactics and not seeing the bigger picture.

If reverse time is something of a choice then I think people with problem gambling issues are more likely to have it available then switch it off. So it would have to be up to the industry to impose it - IMO

 

[Dipity]

I don't mind it, as long as I can request a manual flush as and when I require.

 

[KasinoKing]

I had to vote "don't care"
Personally I have never felt the urge to reverse a withdrawal - it's just not an issue for me.

However, I still don't think casinos should have these "pending periods" at all - cash-outs should be done with the same speed as deposits IMHO.

KK

 

[Seventh777]

...if you mean it should be down to the player to choose whether or not to have it removed, then I agree.

I never really understood why a player regards it useful - can't they just leave the balance in their account if they don't want to cash out?

Yep, that`s entirely what I meant .

 

[colly]

Prefer to play at no reverse casinos or those that flush amd pay quickly= Inetbet, 32red , slotocash =however these days very few casinos do flush or allow no reversal= Its especially irritating with the 48 hr and then no weekend pay casinos as they leave the money for reverssal for over 5 days= after twice making a cashout on thursday and not receiving funds till tuesday (reversible alll that time) I decided NOT to play at casinos that do this except from sunday night to Tuesday.


There is no reason any casino cannot make the funds non reversable even if they dont pay it out promptly= it may be convenient for some but frankly I think it is a con tactic to tempt people to play there winnings back.

 

[SkBurner]

I put 'I don't really care' but only because I will play at some casino's (Betway for instance) where they have a 48 hour pending period and only flush for VIP's (I'm a non-VIP). They do however offer great regular bonuses but if there was a choice between a match bonus at 32Red or the same at Betway, 32Red would have my deposit all day long!

I've never reversed a withdraw and would prefer to play at a casino that offered manual flushing (i.e. 32Red) or no pending at all (i.e. Ladbrokes, Bet365). But I'm a low-roller and like to take a bonus to extend my playtime which means depositing where I get offered a bonus.

 

[samoas]

If there was an "other" button, I would have voted. As a player in the US at RTG facilitities, we have no choice. I do my best to refrain from reversing when I have a decent cash-out pending. I hear 3Dice is quick, but unfortunately I am not a fan of the graphics.

Back in the MG days, I would always flush and rarely ever asked for a reversal.

 

[anniemac]

What samoas said.

I remember the 'good old days' of being able to play anywhere I wanted to, being able to request a withdrawal flush and getting paid within hours.

If there was a casino offering US players the option of flushing a withdrawal and no pending period, they would get my vote.

 

[harrys99]

If there was an "other" button, I would have voted. As a player in the US at RTG facilitities, we have no choice. I do my best to refrain from reversing when I have a decent cash-out pending.

Ditto

 

[Simmo!]

I realise you Americans have no choice but you are allowed to vote as you would if you had a choice - the poll is all about attitudes

 

[BustedFlush]

The reverse period is nothing more than 'leaving the cake on the table' - once you're full up you'll leave it for a few hours, then when stomach has a bit of room you'll go and take another slice......

If you play at Boyles, Ladbrokes etc. you can't reverse and you need to redeposit. You can do this as many times as you want.

I never play Playtech for this reason, the horrendous 96-hour pending period.

 

[Simmo!]

If you play at Boyles, Ladbrokes etc. you can't reverse... I never play Playtech for this reason, the horrendous 96-hour pending period.

Boyles is Playtech now by the way - and no reverse either

 

[BustedFlush]

I stand corrected. It was Wagerworks when I played there....:notworthy

Why have big names like PP nad BS started going from WW to Playtech?

Wagerworks were always my favourite games, seem to have stagnated and shrunk.

 

[Simmo!]

I stand corrected. It was Wagerworks when I played there....:notworthy

Why have big names like PP nad BS started going from WW to Playtech?

Wagerworks were always my favourite games, seem to have stagnated and shrunk.

IGT decided to withdraw the Wagerworks platform so casinos like Paddy, Boyle, Grosvenor, Blue Sq etc had to shift platforms. Some clever Playtech marketing bod offered them a deal I guess as they have all added a Playtech casino.

However, in all cases except Boyles (which will also follow at some point) the IGT sots have been retained and moved into their "Games" section. The terminology "Games" is a bit misleading (historical) because most casinos now have the "real" casino slots there. Should really start calling it "Instant Casino" or something.

To be honest it's all going "open" at the moment so it probably won't be long before everyone has everything LOL.

 

[BustedFlush]

IGT decided to withdraw the Wagerworks platform so casinos like Paddy, Boyle, Grosvenor, Blue Sq etc had to shift platforms. Some clever Playtech marketing bod offered them a deal I guess as they have all added a Playtech casino.

However, in all cases except Boyles (which will also follow at some point) the IGT sots have been retained and moved into their "Games" section. The terminology "Games" is a bit misleading (historical) because most casinos now have the "real" casino slots there. Should really start calling it "Instant Casino" or something.

To be honest it's all going "open" at the moment so it probably won't be long before everyone has everything LOL.

Yes, that's the impression I'm getting, Virgin being a good example.

 

[Realitybitez]

My vote: Yes, but only if they offer manual flushing.

Some people like the option of been able to cancel withdrawal at any time. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. I would rather not have that option at all. However that doesnt put me off a casino however having the option to 'manually flush' cashouts would suit me fine

I just made a cash out the other day at some casino where they have no flushing. I was really not happy because my will power is zilch so in the last 24 hours or so, I have managed to sink most of it back in:sob:

 

[SAunnyS72]

My vote: Yes, but only if they offer manual flushing.

This SHOULD be the option 100%.

 

[SAunnyS72]

I dont much mind if there is a reversal period, as if I dont have the willpower to wait a couple of days then I feel thats my problem more than the casinos, but when a casino starts pushing or suggesting I reverse it (possibly even with some type of incentive) I feel thats a bit off. Much like being followed around a store by a 'helpful' clerk (''Can I help you buy something today sir?'' ''No, you cant... I'm capable of shopping on my own thanks'' - Not a huge deal but still can be a bit off putting)

It's more like the 'clerk' already used your card and put your pin in and bought an item and all you gotta do is press the button to accept the transaction

 

[huny2]

I voted " I really don't care."

Personally I think it is really rediculous to expect casinos to "slap your hand" when you are being bad and treat you like a five-year old child. "No, No...no more candy for you."

 

[pmutts]

If I had back half of what I reversed in a late-night drunken stupor . . .

Really, if I had back even a third of what I lost back--usually drunk and late at night--over the years, I could retire.

I had never even heard the term "flush" a withdrawal until I got on CM. I have played since 1999 off and on but quit from 2006 - 2009. When I started playing a couple of years ago, Microgaming was gone--at least for me. I don't believe any of the MG casinos offered manual flush in 2006. It was common practice for most to tell you 48 hours and then leave it in there for 3 or 4 days.

Why would they actually pay you if they can so easily manipulate many customers into losing it back?

 

[iataz]

Most BetonSoft casinos you can't do a partial reversal if you do it starts your 48 hr wait all over again

 

[BustedFlush]

Most BetonSoft casinos you can't do a partial reversal if you do it starts your 48 hr wait all over again

That's not nice.

 

[BBKPoker]

I voted it was fine as long as the period is less than 24 hours. In general, I just don't play at casinos that take more than 2-3 business days to pay out, unless their games are amazing, or their promotions are awesome so having any kind of long reversal period pretty much means I'm not playing with you. 24 hours seems fine/reasonable. I think the ideal is for a casino to default to 24 hours, but be happy to remove the reversal period permanently for you if you request them to do so. I suppose flushing is sort of a fair version of that, but I'm sure not even giving yourself the temptation to gamble back in the first place would be the ideal. I've personally rarely or never reversed a withdrawal (I can't remember any, but maybe there was one) but I've certainly felt tempted to before!

 

[Simmo!]

Just asking a casino why they won't flush:

...one of the reasons that we have the 'reverse state' period for 48 hours is due to making it convenient for our players to access the withdrawal amount when they feel bored and really want to play. The majority of our players get frustrated when this is not available for them, as it is their withdrawal amount and they should be given the opportunity to use the funds as they see fit.

As much as we would love to please all our players in this regard, we do understand that not all players will feel the same. We do however need to cater for the majority vote.

I'll give this poll a couple more days as a sticky to see if we can get 100 votes - if you haven't voiced an opinion please do so, then I'll let it slide and just drag it up as a reference when I'm feeling grumpy LOL.

 

[Surasanji]

Just asking a casino why they won't flush:

...one of the reasons that we have the 'reverse state' period for 48 hours is due to making it convenient for our players to access the withdrawal amount when they feel bored and really want to play. The majority of our players get frustrated when this is not available for them, as it is their withdrawal amount and they should be given the opportunity to use the funds as they see fit.

As much as we would love to please all our players in this regard, we do understand that not all players will feel the same. We do however need to cater for the majority vote.

I'll give this poll a couple more days as a sticky to see if we can get 100 votes - if you haven't voiced an opinion please do so, then I'll let it slide and just drag it up as a reference when I'm feeling grumpy LOL.

Wouldn't a manual flush button somewhere in the casino achieve just that aim?

 

[max1mike]

Just asking a casino why they won't flush:


...one of the reasons that we have the 'reverse state' period for 48 hours is due to making it convenient for our players to access the withdrawal amount when they feel bored and really want to play. The majority of our players get frustrated when this is not available for them, as it is their withdrawal amount and they should be given the opportunity to use the funds as they see fit.

As much as we would love to please all our players in this regard, we do understand that not all players will feel the same. We do however need to cater for the majority vote.

what a steaming pile of poop that is. how about..when i hit the cashout button, you pay me instantly, and if I,"feel bored and really want to play" I just make a deposit with the cash you just paid me!!!

 

[chayton]

I said "if the reverse is 24 hours' although if you'd talked to me yesterday (right after reversing a WD and losing it) my answer would have been different.

But the thing is, it wasn't the casino who made me reverse, it was my own stupid choice. Although when a casino says there's a 24 hour reverse period and then they leave your withdrawal sitting there reversible all weekend, that's kind of sucky IMO. But it was my own doing, so whatever. Of course I prefer playing where they offer flushing on request, but not very many places I play offer that anymore.

 

[Tirilej]

@ Simmo I suppose that was from one of Jackpot Capital casinos. They gave me that answer too, but when I asked another time it was more because the players recycle the money, and it was expensive for the casino.
I think that's the main reason. That way they win twice on the same money because so many are probably reversing at least a part of their cashout.

What I believe is that there isn't one single player that wants to reverse. We are cashing out because we won and want the money. If there was a flushbutton or instant withdrawals everyone would use it.
Why wouldn't we?

 

[rainmaker]

.

I think any obligatory pending time is based on ignorance. Those casinos who endorse such practice simply don`t get it. Probably also why the most successful casinos are those who pays out quickly with no obligatory pending period at all.

Recurring customers that are loyal over time, who occasionally manage to cash out but mostly will lose are the most profitable customers for a casino. Casinos and companies in general must create loyalty.

And loyalty is not created if the casino constantly will do whatever they can to delay or prevent withdrawals by practicing a long obligatory pending time. It may be profitable for the casino in the short term to do whatever they can to prevent withdrawals, but it certainly is not profitable over time.

If the casino want loyal and profitable customers, then they actually should encourage customers to occasionally cash out. Simply because it is good for business.

The faster the casino pays out, the faster the customer most likely will re-deposit.

I personally will never use a casino that practice any obligatory pending time.

 

[skiny]

A 48 hour reversal period..... Seriously?

Head down to the B&M casinos. Pick any one of them in any country. Start banging away at the slots and hopefully have a decent little run.

Now you're up $200, $2k, $20k.... whatever a decent little run is. Ok, now it's time to call it quits.... Columbo is on in an hour and it's a 45 minute drive home.

You get as far as the casino door and the manager says "Way to go on your win. I see you're leaving. Are you sure you want to take all that with you though? Maybe I should just hold on to that for a couple of days.... Just in case you want to come back and try again."

And you say "No, thanks. I'd like to just take my money now."

And the manager says "No, you REALLY need to leave that money here for a couple of days."

And you say "I really don't want to gamble with it anymore. I want to use it to buy a square TV so I can watch Columbo properly."

And the manager says "Well, I'm sorry. Not taking your money when you leave IS policy. You can carry it around the casino if you like but if you want to leave you have to let it sit here for a couple of days."



If you want to leave your money sitting at the casino for a couple of days AFTER you decide you'd like to make your withdrawal, be my guest. I'll play where they let you take your money when you leave.

 

[footdr]

If they approve my withdrawal with 48 hours and process the payment on the day it is approved, I don't care if they flush or not. Some casinos may flush it but take days or weeks after it approved to actually process it or pay you. I wouldn't reverse a withdrawal if I know they will likely approve and process it within 48 hours. The only time I may reverse a withdrawal is if I made it on a friday at Liberty Slots, where I can reverse say $100.00 form a pending withdrawal because I feel like gambling and don't have the funds to deposit and play somewhere else.

I have done this several times and ended up with winning even more.
Just my experience and the way I think about it.

 

[Simmo!]

...loyalty is not created if the casino constantly will do whatever they can to delay or prevent withdrawals...

Indeed. Loyalty is created in any market by meeting - or exceeding - a customer's expectations. If the "majority" prefer to have their money held for 2 days after withdrawing in an accessible state, then let the "majority" have that. But if the "minority" would prefer not to have their wad sitting their waving at them, then I feel they should respect that too.

Sending an email saying the customers want it (which I've had several times before) just assumes I am a bit stupid but there you go. Like I'm gonna sit there and go "Oh right. It must be me then. Sorry, I'll change my outlook totally and stop being so unreasonable in future". You don't expect them to admit they do it wrong after all and it's no great shakes: there is so much choice out there now, I just closed the account. To be fair I was only testing them but still, if that's how they treat customers then it doesn't bode well (and in case they were wondering, no they won't be appearing on my websites LOL).

The point about saving money on processing has to be a consideration for a casino - after all, it is a business. Some businesses will choose to - may even need to - put financial considerations ahead of the customer but I can't help but feel it's a false economy based on a short-term outlook. A casino who argues they make more money with longer reverse times will ultimately not be attractive to a lot of players.

Judging from the poll so far, it seems that having a reverse time and offering a flush option strikes a happy medium, although I've still come across casinos that take 12 hours to respond to a flush request LOL, which kind of makes it a pointless service. Personally I like my Virgins(!), Bet365's and 32Reds where when I cash out, that's it - it's done.

Like Skiny says: that's what a real casino should do.


@Tirilej. It wasn't Jackpot Capital or an RTG - it was an MG.

 

[rainmaker]

Sending an email saying the customers want it (which I've had several times before)

Yes, casinos today with 24H or 48H pending time will often come up with a "but our customers want it"-explanation. That is of course only bullshit. The pending time itself is bad, the explanations are just stupid.

Players who cancel and lose a pending withdrawal will feel like shit. And I really can not understand why in the world a company will do whatever they can to make their customers feel like shit. As I said, a practice like this is really based on ignorance and it is not profitable in the long run.

 

[footdr]

I unstall the casino after I make the withdrawal most of the time. I take a screen shot of the pending withdrawal before doing so. Perhaps this would be helpful to players who are tempted to reverse their withdrawal. If you make a withdrawal prior to the weekend and don't have money to deposit at another casino; then don't cashout all of your winnings, Lease yourself $50-$100 to play with over the weekend.(I do this sometimes when I am broke).

 

[Simmo!]

Be nice to get 4 more votes to round it up to the hundred but I'm going to let this one slide now. I'll close the poll at 100 votes or in 24hrs, whatever comes soonest

 

[conker]

It's been a very interesting poll, which has raised a lot of opinion from members. I wonder how much attention casinos pay to this as it is pretty clear that it is hugely important to genuine players.

 

[ksech]

I voted no (for what it's worth since I haven't gambled online in over a year and I live in the US) and since you stated it's about attitudes

If I remember correctly...most (some?) of the RTG casinos, if you reverse even part of your withdrawal, it starts the withdrawal process all over again. So, even if you are "tempted" to play with a small portion of your winnings, you are then 'penalized' and have to wait an additional 24/48 hrs to be processed if the casino doesn't flush.

When I played Rivals, I don't ever recall being able to reverse a withdrawal. Slotocash usually had the payout done so fast you didn't have a chance to reverse.

And MGs (Intertops/Royal Joker and the few others before the UIGEA) were really quick paying out to NeTeller so there wasn't any need to reverse.

Isn't there a group though which won't let you make a new/fresh deposit if you have a pending withdrawal? They encourage you to reverse? (I can't remember which group it is right now, will have to look back through some old threads)

 

[Simmo!]

It's been a very interesting poll, which has raised a lot of opinion from members. I wonder how much attention casinos pay to this as it is pretty clear that it is hugely important to genuine players.

I think most casinos consider it's implications and I don't believe any casino is silly enough to think the majority their players want it, even if they say that.

Hopefully a poll like this makes the figures more available to those who don't know (after all, they never ask). I think if nothing else, based on a moderately sized sample of mostly experienced players, it demonstrates that nearly 60% of them won't stay loyal to a casino who impose a 24hr or greater mandatory reverse time. But stats can be read in many ways: one might argue that 35% of players are more than happy to play with a reverse pending time.

The decision for a casino has to be whether the financial savings of a reverse time outweigh the loss made from players who will move somewhere else. Al this poll can do is help in that decision-making process.

Additionally, from my perspective, when I come across a casino that won't show flexibility on a reverse time or with flushing, I immediately and subconsciously see them as an adversary. I am still trying to work out how that can be good for business LOL. But I appreciate different players see it different ways.

 

[Simmo!]

Last bump to try and get to the 100 votes

 

[oldtrvlagt]

In a perfect world, if you deposit in 5 seconds you should be able to withdraw in 5 seconds and just like at a B & M casino when you hit the cashout button you have a ticket in your hand (at least at an online casino there should be no "choice" to reverse it) so I voted no.

It is way to easy to reverse a withdrawal at RTG casinos. Online gambling is a different "animal" so to speak. There are times when the dollar figure showing doesn't seem real....there are too many factors involved when you are sitting at home, comfy, bored, etc. and managing money at an online casino demands self control.

I say this from experience....last summer I won a Rushmore tourney for $1500. I submitted the withdrawal and it was in limbo for weeks. In the meantime I won another tourney (can't remember the exact amount) but played it until at one time I had three more withdrawals pending for $1000 each. With the mind set that I wasn't going to receive the money or would have to wait months I played it all back. That was my own lack of self discipline and I was annoyed but I had never deposited. If I had deposited I may have looked at it differently. We'll never know because I would never deposit at Rushmore.

All I'm saying, IMHO, is that if it is cash in it should be cash out just as quickly.

 

[patryc]

They should do reverse deposit! I think it an excuse to hold onto your money a bit longer. I try to avoid Casinos like this if possible BUT better wait 4 days than get nothing from the no-pay Casinos.

 

[Simmo!]

I've closed the poll now. For the record, one vote was removed on request so the figures and percentages now paint an accurate picture. Thanks for taking part those who did.

Cheers,

Simmo!

 

[maphesto]

Thanks for this Simmo!

Do you think this result can be sent to casino reps on the forum?

 

[Simmo!]

Thanks for this Simmo!

Do you think this result can be sent to casino reps on the forum?

I think several will have seen it and to be honest, although I woud like it to have an impact I think the best one can hope for is that it's been noted. The good news is that nowadays, the choice for players is big enough (putting the US aside, but that will follow) that it's pretty easy to find casinos who flush or don't have the reverse thing.

Plus, while there are players who cave in to big "free money" incentives, the reverse times will always continue to exist at a lot of places.

 

[mrmark21]

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering about 32 Red, I've made a little profit there, and want to know what can be done about actually keeping it this time lol most of the time i seem to just end up getting bored, reversing the withdrawal, and start playing higher bets only to loose it all. There is nothing fun about being up a good $700 and playing $1.00 bets. I play for fun, so when I'm up it's always nice to keep the money for future deposits.

Seems 32 Red can't remove the reverse withdrawal option? Should i just contact customer support when i don't want the option to reverse withdrawal? also what does it mean to flush?