Better than the Bonus?

[Surasanji]

I think the post-wager bonuses such as the ones at Virgin, Sky and many other wagerworks sites are the way of the future. No weird game exclusions, no max cashouts etc.. - you just play with your own cash and when you've wagered enough (on permitted games) you get the bonus as cash.

Interesting- I don't play on Virgin or Sky, and haven't yet run into a post-wager bonus.


I do get why the Match Deposits work though, Internet Casinos are able to take a far larger 'slice' of the economic community. You don't have to dress up, even, to enter those casinos :P

So, it kind of makes sense for low-rollers who want to have a bit more betting power. More betting power tends to mean a better statistical chance of a cashout- Particularly with slot machines. And the match bonuses do help with that- if removed from the rest of the requirements, at least.

I've seen a number of very interesting ideas so far.

I particularly liked VWM's idea of letting certain players try bonuses before a wider level of acceptance- I imagine, however, it take a rather special player to do such.

At the same time- there are a /lot/ of Pay for Play online services (MMOs and such) that allow players to step up as Admin in various regards- usually as 'storytellers' or 'player helpers' of some type.

Thing is- in this case? You'd need a /quality/ person, I think, to allow that. Or quality people. And certainly, were it me in charge of such- I'd offer /something/ to my super loyal player who's helping the casinos make such a system.

So far it sounds like Cash is King...

[Surasanji]

Behave, you are married now .

With friends like you, Seven, I never need to worry. Thank you for protecting my virtue.

Goodness knows I don't need a bonus from some dude with 'Big' in his name.... :P

[Seventh777]

With friends like you, Seven, I never need to worry. Thank you for protecting my virtue.

Goodness knows I don't need a bonus from some dude with 'Big' in his name.... :P

Big and Monster, hardly surprising this dude is married .

[vinylweatherman]

Don't even dare to mention Sky !!! i expect you to remove that in your post

I find the mention of "Virgin" far more offensive, given that my umpteenth internet disconnetion of the week made me take a trip downstairs to yet again reset my "always on" cable broadband connection

Interesting- I don't play on Virgin or Sky, and haven't yet run into a post-wager bonus.


I do get why the Match Deposits work though, Internet Casinos are able to take a far larger 'slice' of the economic community. You don't have to dress up, even, to enter those casinos :P

So, it kind of makes sense for low-rollers who want to have a bit more betting power. More betting power tends to mean a better statistical chance of a cashout- Particularly with slot machines. And the match bonuses do help with that- if removed from the rest of the requirements, at least.

I've seen a number of very interesting ideas so far.

I particularly liked VWM's idea of letting certain players try bonuses before a wider level of acceptance- I imagine, however, it take a rather special player to do such.

At the same time- there are a /lot/ of Pay for Play online services (MMOs and such) that allow players to step up as Admin in various regards- usually as 'storytellers' or 'player helpers' of some type.

Thing is- in this case? You'd need a /quality/ person, I think, to allow that. Or quality people. And certainly, were it me in charge of such- I'd offer /something/ to my super loyal player who's helping the casinos make such a system.

So far it sounds like Cash is King...

I was thinking more of these players being employed by the casino on an ad-hoc basis to look at the terms from the point of view of an advantage player looking for a loophole or mistake that might lead the the promo being "cracked" by the better players when it went live.

Take the Betfair fiasco. 5 senior managers signed off on the "happy hour" promo before it went live. It was massively "cracked" almost straight away, and in a short space of time, the information became so widespread that it was "done" overnight by an army of advantage players on what I believe was the second time they ran it.

It didn't take those players long to spot the potential for an exploit, and the key was the "unlimited" nature of the bonus, which was compounded by the very obviously +EV nature of the WR. A quirk in their set up allowed a "rinse and repeat" tactic to be employed, which gave even modest depositors unlimited leverage because they were able to get another bonus by moving the cleared funds to the sportsbook, and straight back to the casino again, where the software saw it as a fresh deposit and credited the bonus again. This would NEVER have been possible in a stand alone casino, as the system would have seen the process as a "reversal" rather than a deposit, and would not have credited the bonus again.

Had they employed an advantage player, and told them to "do your best to crack this", they would have found out they were heading for an imminent disaster, and not released the promo.

Often, it is subsequent runs of a promo that leads to a problem. The first time, players have only just seen it, and while some will figure it out, by the time they share the information on the internet, the promo is over. If a potential problem is not seen, and the promo is run again, many more players know how to beat it, and many will have a go.

I was able to repeatedly "crack" the Jackpot Factory promos, but I would often tell the VIP team how I had done it, and they admitted that I was one of a "select few" who had spotted it. The next time a similar promo was run, it had been tweaked based on my earlier "crack", and feedback.

They used to award scoreboard points based purely on depositing and playing it through once. No matter how much more a player played, they could advance no further. The "crack" was "bleedin' obvious". Deposit 20K from Neteller, play it through at least 1x, withdraw and get it flushed. This could be repeated every 1 to 2 days in order to top the scoreboard. I told them that the structure of scoring encouraged this churning of deposits, and that it would be better off making wagering the prime driver of the scores. Their promos were steadily tweaked in this direction, and now all JF scoreboard promos score wagering, and win/loss on the day. They also weight scoring so that 100 credits played on slots is worth much more than 100 credits played on Blackjack.

The other "crack" was their extra points for a payout of 500 credits or more per game per day. The "crack" being to cover all options on games like Roulette, Craps, etc so that whatever happened, the payout would be over 500, but at the lowest possible risk and variance. The strategy was more cost effective (and quicker) than playing 1000 credits on slots. This is what is now replaced by the points based on the day's net win or loss.

The main problem in asking players for help is that the player might decide a "crack" they have spotted is too good to give up for the fee paid by the casino, and they might give the "good to go" to marketing, and then use what they have found out to beat the promo. The casino would have to offer enough to such players that it is in their best interests to be honest, and not use any loopholes for themselves. This usually means also banning the player from playing at the casino because of a potential conflict of interest, but this is not something many players would want to agree to. It is common for full time employees and their immediate family to be banned from playing at their own casino, but for them it is a job, and may not be a restriction that bothers them too much.

[Surasanji]

I was thinking more of these players being employed by the casino on an ad-hoc basis to look at the terms from the point of view of an advantage player looking for a loophole or mistake that might lead the the promo being "cracked" by the better players when it went live.

Clearly, I misunderstood to begin with! Thank you for the further explanation!

It sounds a little (okay, almost exactly) like how a lot of companies will hire 'Security Experts' (Ex-Hackers) to knock about their networks to find security holes. Its not a bad idea- and clearly such players would not be allowed to play at the casino in question. They'd be employees at that point.

That would help fix bonuses, certainly- but that doesn't change the fact I rather dislike them and want something a /lot/ better for everyone involved.

I still feel like VIP levels based on 'something' would make sense. I think Wagering, over deposits- or perhaps an average of the two over the lifetime of your play at a particular casino. That would, I figure, eventually create a happy medium between low-rollers and high-rollers.

I was looking at the experience here on the Forum, actually- just hanging out, looking at it. I'm almost curious if something like that couldn't be somehow evolved into a system to awards based on positive interaction with the Casino...

But how to define positive in that situation... Hrm.

[PaaskeDKnowUK]

What's wrong with sky?

Shocked you haven't heard about this. Should even hit the newspapers soon.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...-new-slot.html

They are just a place to stay away from. And should be in the Rogue pit, if not already placed or getting placed there

[Realitybitez]

When you get your bonus, regardless weather you meet wagering terms or whatever you are allowed to withdrawal from your cash balance. You do loose your bonus but sometimes its better that way

eg: A few weeks ago, I was playing on some casino, had only put in about $30 and got a good hit straight way. Won $300 on some game, cant remember what now but because I hadnt met the wagering requirements of the bonus, couldn't withdrawal. So played through till I met the wagering requirements, however in the process, lost it all

So I do like the policy some casinos have, of one being able to withdrawl from their cash balance anytime they want regardless whether wagering requirements have been met or not

[Realitybitez]

I find the mention of "Virgin" far more offensive, given that my umpteenth internet disconnetion of the week made me take a trip downstairs to yet again reset my "always on" cable broadband connection




I was thinking more of these players being employed by the casino on an ad-hoc basis to look at the terms from the point of view of an advantage player looking for a loophole or mistake that might lead the the promo being "cracked" by the better players when it went live.

Take the Betfair fiasco. 5 senior managers signed off on the "happy hour" promo before it went live. It was massively "cracked" almost straight away, and in a short space of time, the information became so widespread that it was "done" overnight by an army of advantage players on what I believe was the second time they ran it.

It didn't take those players long to spot the potential for an exploit, and the key was the "unlimited" nature of the bonus, which was compounded by the very obviously +EV nature of the WR. A quirk in their set up allowed a "rinse and repeat" tactic to be employed, which gave even modest depositors unlimited leverage because they were able to get another bonus by moving the cleared funds to the sportsbook, and straight back to the casino again, where the software saw it as a fresh deposit and credited the bonus again. This would NEVER have been possible in a stand alone casino, as the system would have seen the process as a "reversal" rather than a deposit, and would not have credited the bonus again.

Had they employed an advantage player, and told them to "do your best to crack this", they would have found out they were heading for an imminent disaster, and not released the promo.

Often, it is subsequent runs of a promo that leads to a problem. The first time, players have only just seen it, and while some will figure it out, by the time they share the information on the internet, the promo is over. If a potential problem is not seen, and the promo is run again, many more players know how to beat it, and many will have a go.

I was able to repeatedly "crack" the Jackpot Factory promos, but I would often tell the VIP team how I had done it, and they admitted that I was one of a "select few" who had spotted it. The next time a similar promo was run, it had been tweaked based on my earlier "crack", and feedback.

They used to award scoreboard points based purely on depositing and playing it through once. No matter how much more a player played, they could advance no further. The "crack" was "bleedin' obvious". Deposit 20K from Neteller, play it through at least 1x, withdraw and get it flushed. This could be repeated every 1 to 2 days in order to top the scoreboard. I told them that the structure of scoring encouraged this churning of deposits, and that it would be better off making wagering the prime driver of the scores. Their promos were steadily tweaked in this direction, and now all JF scoreboard promos score wagering, and win/loss on the day. They also weight scoring so that 100 credits played on slots is worth much more than 100 credits played on Blackjack.

The other "crack" was their extra points for a payout of 500 credits or more per game per day. The "crack" being to cover all options on games like Roulette, Craps, etc so that whatever happened, the payout would be over 500, but at the lowest possible risk and variance. The strategy was more cost effective (and quicker) than playing 1000 credits on slots. This is what is now replaced by the points based on the day's net win or loss.

The main problem in asking players for help is that the player might decide a "crack" they have spotted is too good to give up for the fee paid by the casino, and they might give the "good to go" to marketing, and then use what they have found out to beat the promo. The casino would have to offer enough to such players that it is in their best interests to be honest, and not use any loopholes for themselves. This usually means also banning the player from playing at the casino because of a potential conflict of interest, but this is not something many players would want to agree to. It is common for full time employees and their immediate family to be banned from playing at their own casino, but for them it is a job, and may not be a restriction that bothers them too much.

Thats a really idea for the casinos. To employ an advantage player to spot the hacks. I dont think other advantage players would be too happy by the idea though

[chuchu59]

I think the post-wager bonuses such as the ones at Virgin, Sky and many other wagerworks sites are the way of the future. No weird game exclusions, no max cashouts etc.. - you just play with your own cash and when you've wagered enough (on permitted games) you get the bonus as cash.

Isnt this similar to comps at some casinos?

[PaaskeDKnowUK]

Isnt this similar to comps at some casinos?

Hmm I would say no. To give example.
It could be offer at Paddy Power. Stake £20 on new slot. And you get £10.
Means when you played £20 on that slot. You get £10 into your account with no strings attached.
Hope that makes sense