rtg and max payout cap

[Nifty29]

The effect on the total RTP of the game may be small, but it is that part of the RTP that you can actually cashout.
By far the biggest part of a games RTP is in the lower wins, the small ones that just keep you going but wont get you anywhere.
And when you finally hit that monstah, you only get paid a part of what it should pay..

So the effect may be small for the the games total payout, but an individual player will still feel kinda screwed..

I agree.

[chuchu59]

RTG is trying to hide behind the excuse 'effect is less than 1 % rtp' because the question as to why there is a max cap remains unanswered. I think this is for the protection of smaller operators with a small player base who just require one or two 'lucky players' to send them tumbling down. Commercially speaking, they are doing the right thing in protecting their clients just as they were involved in dubious operations like 'safebet', 'hastings' and 'cds' although these are even more ethically wrong. This gives rise to suspicions that rtg will do all in their power to secretly lower the rtp of all games. Actually, I can see no reason why wins should be capped especially when we are talking of high-variance games where the accumulated losses by a majority of players should more than cover the wins of a precious few.

[refre]

Greatly put by De Beuker!
Edit: And chuchu too

I have a feeling this cap was put in place to protect casinos on a tight budget.
You know, the ones with maximum withdrawal of $X,000.00 per week or month.

But still they gladly offer stakes of up to $125 or more per spin. Go figure.

A wise rep once told me, when I asked about the (relatively) low bet limits at their casino, that they wanted to make sure that they would be able to pay every win in a timely fashion. They have since raised their limits, still pay fast though lol.

Freddy

[Papa-ya]

One of the things that having a max cap rule creates is an obsessive compulsive behavior in some players, I have been experiencing this, so this is why I say it.
In all the discussion of the max capping, I have come to the conclusion that it won't matter what anyone thinks of the double paytable rule where one voids the other.
It's obvious to me this secondary rule is to minimize RTG's loses from games they create that have the potential for monsterous wins and I really don't have a problem with the casinos protecting themselves from to many massive wins.
But they create the game with the first payout rule as an enticement to this potential big payday mindset as the players will see it. They know this is how players will perceive the game will payout, so it is a false and misleading payout rule in the first place when there is a secondary rule added on the second page at the very bottom.

Okay fine, now I understand how it works, since having hit the five Counts during the 4 re-spin feature and the win was $499.85 as I had already won 0.15 cents on the first spin. The four re-spins counted as one spin so if I had already won say $300, the counts would have only paid $200, playing at the 0.01 cent bet per line.

Another poster suggested playing at less lines in order to acheive what the win should have been and I have been doing that ever since my 5 count win dissapointment. But what I have been seeing playing from 5-10 lines at 0.05 to 0.10 bet per line is that the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing and the counts will become so rare, that one would think they have been removed. In playing less lines, you have to choose them in numbered order and can't pick the lines you want, thus limiting the ability to have a choice in what lines you want to play. I have been playing like this several times a week for the last few months and have to say that if you use a different strategy, the game seems to create a different strategy to adjust to yours, so to speak. I know this is an rtp configuration, but is it automatic when you change how you play? That's why I would like a better understanding on the mechanics of rtp per individual game versus overall.

If RTG truly wanted to offer a game with no deception then as one poster stated, they should just change the paytables, thus having one paytable rule and not two.
They also should consider if they are going to continue to cap wins, to just cap what the highest amount a game will payout in total and not penalize the low rollers for having that one grand win.

[Nifty29]

One of the things that having a max cap rule creates is an obsessive compulsive behavior in some players, I have been experiencing this, so this is why I say it.
In all the discussion of the max capping, I have come to the conclusion that it won't matter what anyone thinks of the double paytable rule where one voids the other.
It's obvious to me this secondary rule is to minimize RTG's loses from games they create that have the potential for monsterous wins and I really don't have a problem with the casinos protecting themselves from to many massive wins.
But they create the game with the first payout rule as an enticement to this potential big payday mindset as the players will see it. They know this is how players will perceive the game will payout, so it is a false and misleading payout rule in the first place when there is a secondary rule added on the second page at the very bottom.

Okay fine, now I understand how it works, since having hit the five Counts during the 4 re-spin feature and the win was $499.85 as I had already won 0.15 cents on the first spin. The four re-spins counted as one spin so if I had already won say $300, the counts would have only paid $200, playing at the 0.01 cent bet per line.

Another poster suggested playing at less lines in order to acheive what the win should have been and I have been doing that ever since my 5 count win dissapointment. But what I have been seeing playing from 5-10 lines at 0.05 to 0.10 bet per line is that the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing and the counts will become so rare, that one would think they have been removed. In playing less lines, you have to choose them in numbered order and can't pick the lines you want, thus limiting the ability to have a choice in what lines you want to play. I have been playing like this several times a week for the last few months and have to say that if you use a different strategy, the game seems to create a different strategy to adjust to yours, so to speak. I know this is an rtp configuration, but is it automatic when you change how you play? That's why I would like a better understanding on the mechanics of rtp per individual game versus overall.

If RTG truly wanted to offer a game with no deception then as one poster stated, they should just change the paytables, thus having one paytable rule and not two.
They also should consider if they are going to continue to cap wins, to just cap what the highest amount a game will payout in total and not penalize the low rollers for having that one grand win.

1. What "double rule" are you talking about? The paytable contains the amount paid for each combination, limited only by the capped winnings rule. I don't see two "rules" anywhere.

2. The way RTP is changed in RTG slots is by adding or removing symbols. You are suggesting the slot is "adjusting" to the bet you are using, using the fact that you "don't see as many counts" as usual as your basis. Unless you have some kind of data collected over time, then it doesn't really hold water.

3. You say that "the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing". Well of course they are......you are playing 5 or 10 lines on a 25 line machine i.e. you aren't even covering half the payout possibilities....so you will most definitely see more wins on other lines.

4. The slot does not "change it's RTP settings" to match your strategy - it doesn't have to, as you are increasing the variance by playing less lines. It is this that most probably makes it appear that the slot has "changed". Playing less lines means less line wins, but when you do win they are bigger....and of course so is the max cap. If players are going to employ this strategy they have to accept that the "play" will be different and they will not have the same hit frequency as playing all lines.

5. Your OCD or whatever you described is not created by RTG or the games. If it stated at the top "Win 1,000,000 coins!!! PLay now!!" and then had a max cap rule of 500,000 at the bottom I could understand.....but it doesn't. A player's behaviour is their own responsibility IMO.

[Papa-ya]

1. What "double rule" are you talking about? The paytable contains the amount paid for each combination, limited only by the capped winnings rule. I don't see two "rules" anywhere.

2. The way RTP is changed in RTG slots is by adding or removing symbols. You are suggesting the slot is "adjusting" to the bet you are using, using the fact that you "don't see as many counts" as usual as your basis. Unless you have some kind of data collected over time, then it doesn't really hold water.

3. You say that "the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing". Well of course they are......you are playing 5 or 10 lines on a 25 line machine i.e. you aren't even covering half the payout possibilities....so you will most definitely see more wins on other lines.

4. The slot does not "change it's RTP settings" to match your strategy - it doesn't have to, as you are increasing the variance by playing less lines. It is this that most probably makes it appear that the slot has "changed". Playing less lines means less line wins, but when you do win they are bigger....and of course so is the max cap. If players are going to employ this strategy they have to accept that the "play" will be different and they will not have the same hit frequency as playing all lines.

5. Your OCD or whatever you described is not created by RTG or the games. If it stated at the top "Win 1,000,000 coins!!! PLay now!!" and then had a max cap rule of 500,000 at the bottom I could understand.....but it doesn't. A player's behaviour is their own responsibility IMO.

1. On page one of the payout table of Count Spectacular for instance, the counts for 5 lined up is said to pay 10000 x bet per line, at the bottom of page 2, it has the cap win rule.
Thus perceived as a double rule where one voids the other.

2. I wasn't actually meaning to "suggest", it but it seems that way, was asking if it does adjust as the mechanics of the rtp is sometimes hard to understand, especially when playing less lines.

3. Agree

4. That's what I was asking, thank you.

5. Again, there is the first page payout rule and second page has the additional rule at the bottom.

Thank you for your response.

Additional note, the OCD is because I would like to see the 5 count hit one day while playing 5 lines at 0.10 bet per line, nothing strange about that.

[Cleveland]

Question: Does all of this mean that if you are playing 25 lines @ .01 bet per line the most you can win outside of actually hitting a jackpot would be $ 500.00?

So would that mean spinning with hopes of actually hitting that amount will never happened unless you're betting more than .01 per line or you hit a jackpot?

edit: I think i understand now....

[kidice]

[QUOTE=Nifty29;438896]The effect of max cap is less than 1% of total RTP on most games.


One percent is huge!- Particularly if youre a long term kinda player. I'm constantly exploring for a half percent here, a quarter percent there. Haven't found any yet (exception: tournaments) but I'm always lookin! Unfortunately i keep discovering ways I'm getting a fraction of a percent taken away, and then tryin to plug the leak. I know, it's the same- just depends on perspective.

Agreed Nifty, the player bears the burden of reading the fine print. Even when it's slipped in at the end of the last page as a: "oh... by the way.....there's just this little max payout thing we forgot to mention back where it would seem appropriate...."

We can be sure of this: If the max cap rule wasn't in place, RTG would get that money another way.

To Papa-ya: I feel your frustration with the 5 line play and the seemingly missed payouts. Rest assured, your percentages should not change and if anything, they'll improve- providing you hit that capped payout that would have been exceeded by playing more lines. Those missed payouts most likely would never have happened if you played max coins anyways. a zero pay is a zero pay is my thinking here. (it's doubtful that's accurate, but it's a comforting way to think of it)

Cleveland: yeah, that seems to be about the jist of it. 50,000 times line bet on Realm of riches, for example, no matter how you get there. This applies to ALL the spins in total during a feature, at least on my win anyways. RJ pays in full- you prolly won't COLLECT it in full, but it'll pay in full!