I'm Done With Online Gambling

[Westland Bowl]

There is a big contrast between land-based casinos where you can see the cards being shuffled and drawn from the shoe and the online casinos where you don't and you are supposed to trust them to deal you a fair game.

Online casinos are computerized and as such they will analyze your betting strategy and make strategic adjustments in anticipation to your moves. This is not random to the extent that real shuffled cards are. With knowledge of how you bet and your bet amount before the cards are dealt, the result will be likely in favor of the online casino even though cards drawn will still meet the definition of "fair and random."

I do much better in land casinos using some of the same strategies I used online. I know of others who experienced the same thing.

But I know there are those who would disagree with me. That's fine with me. I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

I've had enough of it. I'm quitting while way ahead. If regulation comes in US, I'll be reviewing government auditors methodology and procedures of how they determine a fair online game.

For now, the reality is the online casino holds the cards, hidden from you. If land-based casinos did that, there would be far fewer land casinos. Think about it.

P.S. I believe the closest fair gambling software is Galewind Software that powers Pinnacle Sportsbook. But Pinnacle is not available to US players.

[jstrike]

I don't know, man. You're saying pretty much every online casino's crooked. Maybe that's true and maybe it ain't...but the whole point of this site seems to be for people to out the crooked ones, get rid of them, and pave the way for the honest ones.

When I hear people say the cards are dealt according to your betting strategy, I usually think they're assuming facts not in evidence. First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is? Sure it can see you tend to hit on 15 against a 6 or something glaring like that. Or it can see you double your bet every hand until you hit three times or lose. But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do? And does it look ahead cards in the shoe? If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there. Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit. If they're unlicensed, and they've been in business for ten years and aren't listed as rogue around here, then you probably had a run of bad luck.

Anyway, if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy -- bare minimum we're talking about a whole separate database and a few thousand lines. There's no way you can sneak that onto a website past an audit. There's a much easier way to do it, and that's to double deal cards on the dealer's side; that's something you can do with about two lines of code. But with the volume most online casinos have, and the number of mathematically smart players hanging around, it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

I just don't buy it. I think there are some bad outfits, but I don't think they're all crooked. I know there's this human tendency to blame the casino when you're on a losing streak and I've fallen that way more than once myself. But there's a collective bargaining power of players here to keep the legit casinos in line, and that hopefully will be the seeds of real regulation. So I'd say if you got evidence you were cheated somewhere, you should show it and go after those people, but a blanket statement like this really doesn't do much good to anyone.

[Westland Bowl]

I don't know, man. You're saying pretty much every online casino's crooked. Maybe that's true and maybe it ain't...but the whole point of this site seems to be for people to out the crooked ones, get rid of them, and pave the way for the honest ones.

Galewind Software is about the only one I know of that is more honest than all others.

When I hear people say the cards are dealt according to your betting strategy, I usually think they're assuming facts not in evidence. First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is? Sure it can see you tend to hit on 15 against a 6 or something glaring like that. Or it can see you double your bet every hand until you hit three times or lose. But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do?

There is artificial intelligence that is used by various industries including online casinos. It is amazing what it can do. It doesn't really have to know what you REALLY going to do; it is just enough to know your betting tendencies.

And does it look ahead cards in the shoe?

There is NO shoe. It doesn't exist in casino software. Global Player Casino was the only online casino that I knew of that actually employed a virtual shoe and a player could actually do card counting there. As a result their maximum limits were very low, either $25 or $50. They closed several years ago.

If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there.

There is not a lot, if any, oversight of online casinos. As long as the casinos pay their fees, it's 'hands off'. Those in licensing jurisdictions actually don't have much expertise to examine source code of software providers who may not even be located in the jurisdiction.

Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit.

Audits look at the randomness of cards drawn rather than if the software uses betting strategy analysis. It is rare to see an actual audit methodology used to test a casino's software. A comparison of win/loss ratios between low stakes versus higher stakes would be very useful.

If they're unlicensed, and they've been in business for ten years and aren't listed as rogue around here, then you probably had a run of bad luck.

I know bad luck when I see it. I usually wait it out. When "bad luck" keeps repeating itself over and over and over and over, it's not bad luck. You expect to win at least 40% over time but it's every time. It's no longer "Win some, lose some" but "Lose some, lose some more."

Anyway, if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy -- bare minimum we're talking about a whole separate database and a few thousand lines. There's no way you can sneak that onto a website past an audit.

An audit doesn't look at those things.

There's a much easier way to do it, and that's to double deal cards on the dealer's side; that's something you can do with about two lines of code. But with the volume most online casinos have, and the number of mathematically smart players hanging around, it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

I doubt this would happen unlike the time poker players found out about stuff going on at Ultimate Bet. Blackjack players play by themselves versus with a group of players viewing the same cards. With blackjack, you would have to give a benefit of a doubt that you just hit a bad streak but when the bad streak goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on, it's not a bad streak. I've seen the same crap happen too many times to say this is a bad streak.

I just don't buy it. I think there are some bad outfits, but I don't think they're all crooked. I know there's this human tendency to blame the casino when you're on a losing streak and I've fallen that way more than once myself. But there's a collective bargaining power of players here to keep the legit casinos in line, and that hopefully will be the seeds of real regulation. So I'd say if you got evidence you were cheated somewhere, you should show it and go after those people, but a blanket statement like this really doesn't do much good to anyone.

Fine. The evidence would be buried in the source code of the casino software provider. All I can say is the cards are hidden and why is that? I know I'm not playing online anymore as it is currently setup.

[jod5413]

Westland Bowl, I understand how you must feel. I am not a big gambler so it is hard for me to understand that accredited casinos are not fair or let's say "random" within the means of their money flow.

I always wonder about the people that say they do better at a land based casino VS a on line casino. I do know that there are a huge group of on line casino players that play every day. Then my question would be "how often do you go to a B&M casino" Once a month, week, every day?

How can most of you compare the two (on line & B&M) based on two different premises, one is everyday, one is a lot less? Not my best post, but it is hard for me to figure out how to ask this question? Any answers would be appreciated.

[JAMES50]

Everyday online you are sure to lose much more than once aweek at land base....You are right it doesn't compare..Land based you get your money in hand..Online you wait a week and in between time you lose and end up with less....I am afraid untill it is regulated they will call all the shots and the bottom line is $$$$..Yes,though they could compare to indian casino's

[jod5413]

My entire post was trying to explain that gambling every day at a B&M casino would probably show the same win/lose situation as the on line gambling. You win less the more you play. Is that clearer?

Feel free, Nash and a few other high rollers to convince me otherwise.

[Mavin1]

Computer versus Live Dealer, animated games versus Real Cards being dealt, it's not that hard to figure out.


I would like to add also, first I am not an avid poker player, but have played it quite a bit in fun mode. This is my observation, they play exactly the same as slots.

By this I mean on multi line slots, the majority of wins are 3 matching symbols on a payline, classic slots, the bottom 3 wins on the paytable, poker, the lowest 3 wins on the paytable.

Just as with slots, poker plays exactly the same. same predictable nature as in all aspects of online gaming.


I dedicate my response to 4ofaKind.

[silcnlayc]

jod5413: Feel free, Nash and a few other high rollers to convince me otherwise.

There is no convincing those that will not believe Jod. No matter what they show or say...it still remains what it is. Those that believe that casinos have gone to the wayside (I have believed this for a long time the same as Westland Bowl does now). I am just surprised how long it takes some to come to the realization that casinos are not what they were. I trusted completely for years...until the last few years...then I believed in the changes that the casino did were to the detriment of the player no matter how much "shoving" done my throat all the naysayers tried to do...and it was a lot...goes back quite a few years....and yet it all is coming to pass...players are starting to believe from their own experiences....

Reality will bite many more in the butt and if it takes a longer time, then so be it...it is your dime you continue to give up so easily because you do not believe casinos would do "that"....So, I ask you, how does one convince others that do not believe and will not believe till it is too late? You can't, not till you have been bitten once too many times and when it comes down to it, it doesn't feel quite right "in you mind" anymore.

Some of us long time players began to believe a lot earlier and decided a while back to back off when things changed in "our minds" and tried to give warnings to others of what was coming and what was to be....because we believed it was starting to be done (the changes) but no one can help you decide or believe because there is no so called proof...as so many demanded we show...everyone will believe what they want...no matter what is shown....

It is called denial.....sad truth is, casinos are here to make money, lots of it....and when one stops playing there is always the next player to clean out...casinos do not care...they are NOT your friends...they are here to make MONEY anyway they can...bottom line talks...end of story...

(Going back in my corner to watch, as it all unravels slowly as time will tell because I still believe that all casinos have gone to some extent, to the wayside....)

.

[LinkinFart]

Lets theorize that Westlan Bowl is right.

First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is?

Actually its hard only the first time. When you take into consideration how many people play the same strategy chances are that this strategy had already been covered by the software.

But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do?

Thats why it is called "strategy". You follow the rules not guessing what is the right thing to do. You may change your decision but big numbers will definitely lean toward "strategy" determined move.

If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there.

If You know a licensing body that is doing RNG testing please write it down, I dont know a single one thats doing this. Usually, if not always, licensing body is asking for certificate issued by some certifying firm that RNG will produce number sufficiently random so player cant determine the result of whatever casino game this RNG is going to be used with. Since licensing body is not doing the testing they dont know if RNG code provided to them is really the one that was tested, unless you can imagine a scenario where 2 most honest security guards in the world take tested RNG in chained chest directly from certifying firm to license provider. All changes to code after it has been submitted, in case of Kahnawake gaming commission, must be announced prior to changes taking place. I dont know if other licensing jurisdiction have this rule, I never saw one when I was looking for other things, but lets assume they do have such rule. Are they checking if new code submitted has something "malicious" in it or not, we will never know for sure. But my best guess is that code itself comes to licensing body already modified and updated in small chunks if needed, small enough to slip unoticed in case licensing bodies really do try to keep everything honest.

Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit

I kind of answered this at the end of the previous quote.

if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy

Not really. For reasons already mentioned, most likely youre not the first person playing this strategy. Also, they dont need that much code or inteligence to make the code that will monitor your betting patterns and your "weak spots". Every strategy has the same goal only differs in numbers and numbers are something computers can calculate really fast. They dont have to deduct what you are trying to do.
For example, if you are watching person on the street and you know that person is trying to cross the street. Figuring out how will that person cross the street will not be complicated because there are only few ways it can cross that street. Once that person makes the first step in endeavour to cross the street you will most likely be able to rule out most if not all the wrong ways that person could have taken but didnt.
On the other hand, if you are watching a person on the street and have no clue what that person is going to do than it becomes really difficult to predict what that person will do. Will it cross the street or just throw itself in front of the first car that comes along. Will it go back to where it came from... You cant tell because there are numerous options. Its simple as that, prove me wrong if you think I am wrong.

it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

You can spot obvious ones but not the ones that are being upgraded for years to be more and more "stealthier" also "sneakier" than the previous version. The obvious cheap one man sideshows also known as rogue casinos.
Westland bowl, you mentioned ULTIMATE BET scandal and mentioned poker players discovering it. Well this is not entirely true. Poker players would never be able to prove anything if someone from the inside, I dont think we ever found out who it was, didnt send hand histories which included not only standard data but complete server data with IP addresses, user accounts and all hole cards. If those same players that chewed through endless letters and numbers had only standard histories to look at they would have never caught Potripper. The other scandal I didnt research that deep but it seems they got caught by KGC or just pulled publicity stunt in hope to gain trust again, both KGC and, I`ll call it Cereus, cant remember the name of the company.

Westland bowl

A comparison of win/loss ratios between low stakes versus higher stakes would be very useful.

I highly doubt that we will ever see something like this but I highly doubt there is a difference. Biggers fish needs bigger bait thats the only difference between the people playing small and high stakes. I dont know if you are aware of something that happened on one other forum but in case you are not.
RTG based casino rep promised a webcast tour of the casino. It would include visit to server rooms and he wanted to allow players to see how everything looks like behind the scenes. Even showing how RTP is calculated and some really exclusive information related how online casinos operate.

First day it was fine, we`re good to go. Second day, he received a hold order from network provider so they could "contact" other casinos on the network and see if they are willing to share this information with the public. And of course on the third day RTG said "NO WAY" was the way majority said. It happened throughout several instead of three days but still you get the picture. Online casinos are not likely to show players any time soon how everything works just as a sign of a good will. Unless they are pressed hard this will not change.

[pokeraddict]

You do realize that when you play -EV games you're going to lose, right? Blaming the software or the casino isn't the answer. Online gambling is entertainment, PERIOD! The same goes for B&M. You aren't going to make a living playing casino games if there is any house edge. It sounds like you don't get that.