RTG's - What have we learned can be controlled in the backend?

[takethemoney]

Ok, so there has been speculation about what the operators of RTG casinos can and cannot control. Some of it has been quite wild speculation, such as rumors of the proverbial "switch".

In the past month I have learned that the operator can control the RTP...sort of. Most recently I have learned that the random jackpot does not reset to the same amount in all casinos. At Rushmore I noticed one start off at $5000, not the normal $1000 like most. I also learned about reel symbols and how they can be changed by the casino. I also just learned that the rate the Random Jackpot accumulates is an operator setting.

Here is a potential biggie:
The rate a random jackpot builds is an operator setting in the back end. Have you ever played and felt nobody else was playing, since the number on the RJ was not moving? I thought the counter was broken recently. Support emailed me back and told me the game was set to only move 1c for every 50 spins at $1 per spin. Hence, it has been revealed that too is an operator setting. They can also make it look like the casino is quite busy changing this setting.

So my question is, how can we really trust RTG to be truely random? Does everyone really believe it is? How will we ever know for sure? How much trust do you all put on Technical Testing Sytems? I can put a label on my website too, telling me that the software has been tested for randomness. That doesn't make it true. I read a lot of complaints about the way the games play lately. It seems worse in the past couple years. I feel this too as I play.
Who are we small gamblers to question anything a casino tells us?

I have pretty much given up RTG as I have a gut feeling that what I suspect will soon come to light. Now I understand there has to be a winner once in awhile, and the casino has to continue to boast it's 95.6% payout or whatever they say. Who is watching over who is telling us all this? Yes, people, it's ok to question things!

 

[Dangerous53]

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Ah, the good old days of ignorance, the more I learn, the less it makes me want to play.

 

[takethemoney]

I don't know that they would be in trouble if it has little bearing on anything. I suspect that we've been bamboozled for awhile on this. 1c for every 50 spins at $1 is pretty bad, IMO. I know I personally played $8000 thru a machine who's jackpot at the time was just over $10,000. That was pretty dumb of me but I was challenged to see if I could hit it. The machine's jackpot last time I checked was over $20,000. So, what I'm starting to believe, generally, is when these things pay they have taken in an obscene amount of money.

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Ah, the good old days of ignorance, the more I learn, the less it makes me want to play.

 

[Pinababy69]

LOL...I'm the only one who voted yes? Wow, talk about being the lone wolf in the crowd. So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

 

[DogBoy001]

Most recently I have learned that the random jackpot does not reset to the same amount in all casinos.

And as has been explained several times, operators are able to choose whether they have a reset of $1000 or a reset of $5000, and the percentage increment is set to (a) for the $1000 reset and (b) for the $5000 reset.
This difference in increment is so that RTP is consistent.

I also learned about reel symbols and how they can be changed by the casino.

I suggest you learn some more then, as your investigation is incorrect.

Reel symbol changes are part of the back-end defined RTP settings.
i.e.: There may be differences between the reel strip on a 97% game compared to a 95% game, for instance.
To say that casinos are able to adjust reel strips directly and arbitrarily is not the case.

Here is a potential biggie:
The rate a random jackpot builds is an operator setting in the back end. Have you ever played and felt nobody else was playing, since the number on the RJ was not moving? I thought the counter was broken recently. Support emailed me back and told me the game was set to only move 1c for every 50 spins at $1 per spin. Hence, it has been revealed that too is an operator setting.

No, actually that doesn't mean it's an operator setting, it means the operator has selected option 2 from a back-end setting.
Accumulation is not displayed in real time, for the same reason it isn't updated in real time in land-based casinos, so the meter never stops.
As stated previously though, if you go back to the lobby and re-enter the game, the jackpot meters re-sync.

How much trust do you all put on Technical Testing Sytems?

Well just about every major regulator has certified TST to carry out these functions, if that helps.

Woooof

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

i did not vote and i don't believe its truly random but i do play because there is still a chance to win and get some entertainment. Just accept it as a part of the game.

 

[TOC]

The fact is takethemoney posts negative threads and posts about anything and everything negitive. Search the posts, it's like Debbie Downer on SNL! I don't know if software providers cheat, or casinos but why post the same shit over and over again without something to back it up? Geesh.. If I was a software provider and read this thread I'd be coming after your butt! Why must we go on and on about the same ole crap. If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online. Not a good poll, rather disgusting to the industry and anyone affiliated with RTG or their casino's. JMP ....

 

[4 of a kind]

Dogboy001,

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Do you have access to the entire program of any one software provider, or just work on parts of a particular program?

Would it be safe to say that we could consider the information you provide us here, similar to having our own personal software tester?

Have you ever been aware of any software foul play of any type what so ever in your work place?

I know you mentioned in the past that you would request to RTG to offer the players a Real-Series version with no random jackpot. Exactly what is your job description?

 

[KasinoKing]

LOL...I'm the only one who voted yes? Wow, talk about being the lone wolf in the crowd. So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

Totally agree.
If you don't like what you're getting with RTG - go elsewhere!

If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online.

Pretty twisted logic there.
But then, we've come to be used to that from you, an RTG casino operator.

KK

 

[TOC]

Dogboy001,

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Do you have access to the entire program of any one software provider, or just work on parts of a particular program?

Would it be safe to say that we could consider the information you provide us here, similar to having our own personal software tester?

Have you ever been aware of any software foul play of any type what so ever in your work place?

I know you mentioned in the past that you would request to RTG to offer the players a Real-Series version with no random jackpot. Exactly what is your job description?

I think it's land based casinos, so where does online come into play, even if he/she really works with casino software for a land based software provider. Takethemoney should share credentials or back off in my opinion. And as we all know land based is totally different than online so whats the point?
Oh MY. :machinegu

 

[TOC]

Totally agree.
If you don't like what you're getting with RTG - go elsewhere!


Pretty twisted logic there.
But then, we've come to be used to that from you, an RTG casino operator.

KK

KasinoKing your a fool, I'm an affiliate operator just like you. If you want to play I'm here!

 

[DogBoy001]

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

As I have stated in several previous posts, we are an independent company that supplies games to RTG (and land-based groups).
I'll provide answers to some of the questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

In regards to RTG software, that is correct.

It's as random a system as any of the major land-based groups, and I have worked directly for IGT, and in my time I have supplied games to and worked closely with Bally, WMS and many smaller providers.

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Players are generally suspicious by nature, but in regards to RTG software there is no chance of independent modification of the games on the part of the operator.

Suspicions do not equate to truth, but they are terribly hard to expunge.
Take the "why did my game re-download, it's rigged" argument.
Well yes, games do need to be re-downloaded on occasion, in fact it has happened twice recently with some RTG games, the first due to an art update of the rules page to highlight limited RTP contribution to the jackpots, and the second with the addition of the toolbar.
No matter what the truth behind the matter, suspicions always remain.

On another note on suspicions and cries of foul play, a considerable number of issues that I see posted on these forums relate to RTP settings.
It is a misconception that having several RTP settings that an operator can select from, and have changed via RTG (that is, not on the fly), is somehow less than kosher.
I have pointed out that this is standard operating procedure for the bricks & mortar casino industry, and any major regulation of on-line play will reflect this precedent.

...

Half of the population of Australia believe that B&M slots are rigged, but they ignore mathematics in their argument.
Players are subject to the fact that limited spins produce wildly varying RTP in a random system (and limited spins is relative...5000 spins is a drop in the bucket of a game cycle).

As with the B&M industry the on-line industry has its doubters.
In regards to some software systems those doubts have foundation, but not RTG's.
But players will always believe only what they want to believe.

Woooof

 

[TOC]

It amasses me how the regulars on this site attack posters with crap they don't even understand. KasinoKing can look at my site and see it's an affiliate site. I bet the guy has RTG sites listed on his portal site but hes replying to this thread, go figure. Your site and name is disrespectful, my opinion. I used to respect you but your totally out of line.. Quit trying to be the pit bull at CM because your out of line..

 

[KasinoKing]

KasinoKing your a fool, I'm an affiliate operator just like you. If you want to play I'm here!

I shall restrain my reply - but thanks for the laugh!
For the record; I'm not an affiliate operator, I'm an affiliate.

It amasses me how the regulars on this site attack posters with crap they don't even understand. KasinoKing can look at my site and see it's an affiliate site. I bet the guy has RTG sites listed on his portal site but hes replying to this thread, go figure. Your site and name is disrespectful, my opinion. I used to respect you but your totally out of line.. Quit trying to be the pit bull at CM because your out of line..

Me out of line?
All I said was your logic that "if one casino software is rigged - then they all are" is twisted.
And for that I get your ridiculous attack and insults?
Get a life.

KK

 

[TOC]

I shall restrain my reply - but thanks for the laugh!
For the record; I'm not an affiliate operator, I'm an affiliate.


Me out of line?
All I said was your logic that "if one casino software is rigged - then they all are" is twisted.
And for that I get your ridiculous attack and insults?
Get a life.

KK

OK I'll refrain too but there is no difference in an a affiliate or affiliate operator, sorry. I bet everyone gets a laugh from that, I did. I make money just like you, what 40% from a casino? Back off my friend and I'll be kind because I'm an affiliate just like you, plain and simple.. PS - Laugh all ya want but anyone with any since is laughing at you about now, sorry! Honestly stop while your website still has credibility... Look, I'm not trying to give you or your website a hard time but when you bark up the wrong tree I will be there so move on my friend!! Your out of line.

 

[dcpam39]

So my question is, how can we really trust RTG to be truely random? Does everyone really believe it is?

Yes, I believe that RTG is a random software. I don't think operators need to mess with the randomness of the software to make money. They have far more effective techniques, i.e. bonuses/wagering requirements, accepting deposits 24x7, but limiting withdrawals on the weekends, and holidays, when most people are probably playing; not allowing withdrawals to an ewallet if you deposit with a cc (even if most of the time you use ewallet-Rushmore casinos); not releaseing payments for 5 business days-and then requesting security docs (rival).
I have found that i win with RTG--it's the cashing out that is sometimes the problem.
Pam

 

[Simmo!]

KK / TOC. Enough already please - its a derail. Take it to PM if you must.

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Snap.

I think Dogboy is the man to listen to on this. But for what it's worth, I'd read something recently that made me question this, so I asked two reputable RTG operators at ICE I know for the lowdown and they both (independently) told me exactly the same thing: that any change to games or payouts has to be requested, with good reason, in writing through RTG and if the reasoning was substantiated, only then would it be considered.

Additionally one of them told me, most Real Series slots at a specific casino have to have the same settings across the board, with 95% being the most common setting, so a change to one affects the majority. And of course, the Random Jackpot affects the overall RTP.

FWIW, I was also informed that RTG used to allow operators to play with the settings some years back but there was apolicy shift due to unscrupulous operators using it to obvious advantage. Now if only they'd do a "policy shift" regarding licensing dodgy operators

I voted "yes", but for a couple of months prior to January I would have voted "unsure" LOL.

 

[DogBoy001]

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

Heya,

As is usually the case, one should take technical information supplied by help staff with a grain of salt...they usually do not have a clear understanding of the mathematics involved.

The total jackpot RTP is around 1.3% for the single jackpot reel series games, however it is important to note that this is not the increment.
The RTP includes the seed value in this calculation (either $1000 or $5000).

The "no more than 1.5%" statement found on the rules pages was inserted in preparation for the introduction of the Minor/Major jackpot system, which differs slightly from this c.1.3% total RTP consumption.

Woooof

 

[Pinababy69]

Players are generally suspicious by nature, but in regards to RTG software there is no chance of independent modification of the games on the part of the operator.

Suspicions do not equate to truth, but they are terribly hard to expunge.

Take the "why did my game re-download, it's rigged" argument.
Well yes, games do need to be re-downloaded on occasion, in fact it has happened twice recently with some RTG games, the first due to an art update of the rules page to highlight limited RTP contribution to the jackpots, and the second with the addition of the toolbar.

No matter what the truth behind the matter, suspicions always remain.

Half of the population of Australia believe that B&M slots are rigged, but they ignore mathematics in their argument.Players are subject to the fact that limited spins produce wildly varying RTP in a random system (and limited spins is relative...5000 spins is a drop in the bucket of a game cycle).

As with the B&M industry the on-line industry has its doubters.
In regards to some software systems those doubts have foundation, but not RTG's.
But players will always believe only what they want to believe.

Woooof

Outstanding post Dogboy, and pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the whole "rigged" argument. Not only do players believe what they WANT to believe...the mind will rationalize things in strange ways. Maybe someone loses more than they should or wanted to...the brain starts finding "patterns" to explain away what has happened. You can make yourself see anything, if you really want to. The 5000 spins comment above is SO true. When I read posts of people who say they deposited $100, took $1 or $2 spins and busted....I shake my head. You are giving yourself only a minimum of 100 spins to hit something. Not near enough. You can easily bust out in minutes, and more than likely, you will...on ANY software.

This is why I deposit very small, and bet very small. Sometimes on RTG slots, I will start off only playing 10 lines or 10c bets. Because I know if the machine isn't hitting right away...I could be there for a while, lol. Betting smaller ensures I'm going to get more spins...thus giving me more of a chance to "maybe" hit something.

Don't want to ramble, but that really is a great post.

 

[takethemoney]

I don't come here to get combative with anyone. I don't know who you are but the fact you are connected to the industry in some way makes me care even less from a credibility stand point. Nobody comes after anyone's butt for having legitimate questions. I don't know about you, but I do not live in a communist country where one must watch what they say. You don't scare me. That said, I have posted when I have won too. All my posts aren't negative. Most of the information I posted as fact has already been outted by others. The only thing new I added was what I was told about the RJ accumulation rate setting by an actual CSR from a casino, who got this info directly from tech.

And as suggested, I no longer am depositing at any RTG casinos. I know what I've witnessed over much time and many hundreds of hours over thousands of hands. The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago...I promise. There is more bitching as of late about too few bonus rounds and too small of pays when they do hit. There is familiar talk about how money deposited does not yield the kind of play or entertainment that it used to. Or, about how we see less 5 of a kinds or 5 scatters. When was the last time anyone here got 5 scatters on Cleopatra's gold? When did you last get 5 Cleopatra's. I had them several times prior to 2 years ago. It doesn't happen anymore. What about 5 white diamonds on Diamond Dozen. I used to hit them, but never anymore in many, many thousands of spins. It's not in my head. All I'm seeking is truth and transparency. Until I see more of it I shall refrain from playing.

Peace
PS - I know the poll numbers are relatively small right now, but if 2/3 of the voters feel the game is not truely random then then the industry has a PR problem. Everyone who feels this way is probably not playing to the potential they would be if there were no such doubts. What about all the customers RTG casinos have lost due to such doubts? If I had to take a guess, I would say that gambling online, in general, is down right now. New casinos open up every week and start spamming for $$$. I've been getting lots of phone calls from some apparently desparate establishments, seeking my deposits.

The fact is takethemoney posts negative threads and posts about anything and everything negitive. Search the posts, it's like Debbie Downer on SNL! I don't know if software providers cheat, or casinos but why post the same shit over and over again without something to back it up? Geesh.. If I was a software provider and read this thread I'd be coming after your butt! Why must we go on and on about the same ole crap. If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online. Not a good poll, rather disgusting to the industry and anyone affiliated with RTG or their casino's. JMP ....

 

[deucebag]

Heya,

As is usually the case, one should take technical information supplied by help staff with a grain of salt...they usually do not have a clear understanding of the mathematics involved.

The total jackpot RTP is around 1.3% for the single jackpot reel series games, however it is important to note that this is not the increment.
The RTP includes the seed value in this calculation (either $1000 or $5000).

The "no more than 1.5%" statement found on the rules pages was inserted in preparation for the introduction of the Minor/Major jackpot system, which differs slightly from this c.1.3% total RTP consumption.

Woooof

Q: What is the difference in RTP from the point of view of the player there and then if the RJ $1k and say $10k (assuming both are seeded at $1k)?

 

[DogBoy001]

The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago...I promise.

And yet, other than some operators in that time changing between the 3 RTP settings, nothing has changed.

When was the last time anyone here got 5 scatters on Cleopatra's gold? When did you last get 5 Cleopatra's. I had them several times prior to 2 years ago. It doesn't happen anymore. What about 5 white diamonds on Diamond Dozen. I used to hit them, but never anymore in many, many thousands of spins.

Odds against such events:
5 scatters in Cleopatra's Gold: 243 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 Cleopatras: Playing all 20 lines: 20 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 white diamonds in Diamond Dozen: 243 combinations in over 59 million
I'm not surprised that they don't hit very often

And these aren't overly large game cycles. 5 reels with say, 30 positions on each reel, yields 24.3M

Top paying combinations are hard to hit

Woooof

 

[DogBoy001]

Q: What is the difference in RTP from the point of view of the player there and then if the RJ $1k and say $10k (assuming both are seeded at $1k)?

Here you're talking about the difference between theoretical and actual RTP.
The following is a bit technical.

The theoretical RTP consumption of the random jackpots relates to the average trigger value.
What it hits at on any given trigger is not relevant for calculated RTP, as it is purely a matter of RTP = Average prize * Probability to hit.
This is the same as the calculation for any normal combination prize, like a 3, 4 or 5 of a kind on a payline: Combinations/Total Combinations * Prize

Actual RTP varies from theoretical over varying sample sizes of play.
It's entirely possible to get an RTP of 1000% or 0% on a given sample of spins...so if you hit a random jackpot, the effect there and then is that your personal actual RTP is probably going to be very, very high.

Actual RTP and theoretical RTP for the total game come closer and closer together over more and more spins, but even then you need sample sizes of a very large number of spins before one can say with confidence that the two are going to be pretty close.
For instance, RTP on a 95% game with a moderate volatility may be +/-20% from expected RTP (so between 75% and 115%) after 10,000 spins 95% of the time (this is a 95% confidence level, meaning that 95% of results should fall within this calculated range, based on a normal distribution curve).
Shift that to 100,000 spins and you're looking at +/-5% from theoretical RTP (so 95% of results should now be in a 90%-100% total RTP range).

The trouble is on low amounts of spins normal distribution curves go out the window, and it becomes a very skewed distribution pattern...hence you can get some extreme results.

Anyway, back to the case at hand, RTP as far as a game goes is a calculated value based on probabilities versus prizes.
From the point of view of a player, however, it's based on "what has my return been over my period of play."

Unless there's large amounts of play involved the two will rarely correlate.

Woooof

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Here is my stupid question of the day. "we all get one a day".....

I was told, someplace else, at some other time...........Regarding table games, that there is no such thing as 100% random. That some RNGs use a timer, and this has to be programed, "ie told what to do", by a human. As example, at 3:45 an 2/10 of a second, not all 37 numbers on a Roulette wheel can hit. Only the number programed to hit can?

Is there any sort of truth, or anything to this?

 

[silcnlayc]

DogBoy001:Odds against such events:
5 scatters in Cleopatra's Gold: 243 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 Cleopatras: Playing all 20 lines: 20 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 white diamonds in Diamond Dozen: 243 combinations in over 59 million
I'm not surprised that they don't hit very often

And these aren't overly large game cycles. 5 reels with say, 30 positions on each reel, yields 24.3M

Top paying combinations are hard to hit

Woooof

It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...

And I saw some of those screenies, larger bets will have a comparatively much better chance of hitting a jackpot, and at $10 bets that's roughly a 1 in 30,000 trigger chance at the end of each bet.
Still unlikely to hit 5 in quick succession, hence why it doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.

Woooof

Um, where are your stats on this??? Just a general, "It does happen"??? Interesting.

takethemoney:I don't know who you are but the fact you are connected to the industry in some way makes me care even less from a credibility stand point.

My thoughts exactly. Especially when one tries to hand pick questions they only want to answer directly...

Unless there's large amounts of play involved the two will rarely correlate.

Woooof

I guess over 17 years of online gaming is a "small" amount as you say, yes?

The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago

Because I , too, have seen these changes..but then you are the so called expert that can say whether or not this was a minute amount of play one has done for so many years..in your perception of reality and all these years do not constitute enough play for anyone to "notice" a shift in play on the games...Sure, I believe...because you are the so called "expert".

I also quit depositng except for a token now and then...because as you said, if you believe they are not on the up and up, move on...I did, and I know many others have and will continue to do so.

In all the years I have played, I finally saw my first Random disappear in a casino last night while I was playing my monthly token...odds of that??? Too funny...it reset at a $1000 ...and I said, to myself...same ole, same ole, but at least I got to see my first one "disappear"...

 

[nisosbar]

Additionally one of them told me, most Real Series slots at a specific casino have to have the same settings across the board, with 95% being the most common setting, so a change to one affects the majority. And of course, the Random Jackpot affects the overall RTP.

So you are saying that they can't set, for example, Cleopatra's Gold at 95% RTP while AT THE SAME TIME setting Achilles at 89% RTP, correct?

Because for some reason, I thought they could do just that.

 

[4 of a kind]

How come other then DogBoy001, (who we don't really know who he is or what he actually does) who obviously understands and explains the alleged perfect math when it comes to casino games; that whenever their is important information that everyone wants to know about and gets posted here, its usually from someone knowing someone, that knows someone, that works with someone, who knows someone that works at a casino or software company, and who don't want to be identified?

Are aliens running this crap? This information is a better kept secret then Area 51...

Why is all this information top secret when it comes to online casinos? Live we could find out everything we want to know about the slot machines.

 

[Simmo!]

So you are saying that they can't set, for example, Cleopatra's Gold at 95% RTP while AT THE SAME TIME setting Achilles at 89% RTP, correct?

That's what I was told, yes. A request to change RTP (to only one of 3 settings btw) affects all RS slots simultaneously apparently.

How come other then DogBoy001, (who we don't really know who he is or what he actually does)

He has explained his job and background if you read his early history/posts.

Are aliens running this crap? This information is a better kept secret then Area 51...

Why is all this information top secret when it comes to online casinos? Live we could find out everything we want to know about the slot machines.

LOL. An unfortunate consequence of the US situation. We're talking about US facing casinos where the owners and upper management are hardly gonna get involved publically. Aside from which, most reps and authority people get shot at by certain posters past and present the minute they step up, so most don't want to get involved anyway.

Second-hand is about as good as its ever likely to get.

It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...

Well that was polite. Not. But highlights perfectly my previous comment. Why should anyone hang around when they have to put up with deliberately spiteful posts like this?

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Regarding what simmo said, it is also illegal, "in that you get fired", for people who work in a real Casino here in Vegas, to create a web page or any such thing, promoting the Casino, them self, or providing any information, or their opinion about said casino. Otherwise, every cocktail waitress in town would have a half naked picture, "ie, their work uniform" posted on the internet, telling you to come to Her Casino, and to her section, and Tip her.

You kind of gotta think this type of thing applies to Employees of internet casino's also.

 

[DogBoy001]

Well that was polite. Not. But highlights perfectly my previous comment. Why should anyone hang around when they have to put up with deliberately spiteful posts like this?

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

At the very least the poll has made it fundamentally clear that I'm wasting my time answering technical questions.

I'll leave it with my "players will believe what they want to believe" and withdraw.

All the best.

Woooof

 

[Simmo!]

At the very least the poll has made it fundamentally clear that I'm wasting my time answering technical questions.

I'll leave it with my "players will believe what they want to believe" and withdraw.

All the best.

Woooof

I'd encourage you to ignore the snipes and reconsider. Many posters appreciate the insight even if some do, and always will, remain sceptical Dogboy. Gambling is after all an emotional roller coaster at times

 

[Dangerous53]

I agree with Simmo, the information that you can reveal is more than we get anywhere else, so please don't let the skeptics scare you off.

What some people don't understand, I believe there is some information that can be divulged, and there is a lot that can't without jeopardizing someones employment. They should be happy they get any info at all, I know I'm grateful.

 

[felicie]

LOL...I'm the only one who voted yes? Wow, talk about being the lone wolf in the crowd. So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

Yes Pinababy that is disturbing to me anyway. Still, I can't help feel that none of them are truly 'random' but maybe some are as 'random' as possible so that is why I still play I imagine. And the fact that I can still win.

Good poll thank you.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Dog boy , a question if i may? A relatively simple one but one that has bugged me for years. If things are as you say and their are no switches or controls involved bythe operator whatsover, how is it that one day you can play and hit NOTHING, not a single bonus round, horrible rtp and generally a very annoying and frustrating experience, yet the very next day, log on, deposit, play and EVERYTHING comes out, bonus round after bonus round after bonus round. Are you saying this is just coincidence? pretty huge coincidence if it is. Random should mean the games play the same ALL the time shouldnt they?

 

[De Beuker]

Most ppl until now voted NO.
Me included, and I'll try to explain why.
Its NOT, I repeat, NOT that I think the software is rigged.
The 'believers' here seem to think that there is no other possibility, its either 'truly random' and if not, its 'rigged' and we should find 'another hobby'.
I find that utterly lame, so please quit that 'another hobby' crap please.

Its just that we have no idea how the software/casino works exactly.
Is there one magical black box standing somewhere in the cellar with RNG written on it, spitting out random numbers like crazy for the entire casino?
Or does each game have its own dedicated RNG and is it nothing more than a piece of software?

If the first is true, it would not make any difference at all what slotgame we play.
There cannot possibly be 'hot' or 'cold' slots.
Each spin would be completely independent from any other spin and changing games because a certain game is kicking your a$$ is useless, you might just as wel stay with that one as your chances are exactly the same, no matter what you do.
I'm very sorry, but I just refuse to believe that.

Most slotplayers know that there ARE hot and cold streaks and that changing games CAN turn your luck for the better.
Oh, hell, maybe I'm just seeing faces in the clouds, but at least I'm not the only one.

What about the 'random' multipliers in for example Texan Tycoon?
Are these random?
Can't help but if the game plays like crap, the multipliers are also crap, 2x, maybe an occasional 3x, but if its paying it can throw the 10x in one after another.
You will also see that the pick'em free spins give 15 or 25 instead of the usual 8.

So thats why I THINK its not 100% random.
Not rigged, just in a way controlled.
And its not only RTG, the same goes for Microgaming and Rival.
With 100% truly random slots you would not see these extreme up and downswings all the time.
To be honest, I think truly random slots would be utterly boring to play.

 

[silcnlayc]

Originally Posted by silcnlayc
It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...

Well that was polite. Not. But highlights perfectly my previous comment. Why should anyone hang around when they have to put up with deliberately spiteful posts like this?

What was being spiteful about asking for stats that Dogboy throws out every which way for some and then ignores others with a ho hum attitude??

I was asking a question...pointing out how he usually glosses over the ones he'd rather not address...I do not understand where this is spiteful??

I for one would really like to know the odds for hitting 5 randoms at one casino in one week by the same person..if Dogboy could do the odds on the hardest of questions, why not this one with something other than.."it does happen"...HUH????

Well, Dogboy, this one is yours, please do not leave on account of your perception of my question. It was not meant to be offensive..it was asked again since I have been totally ignored by those "in the know" that do not want to at least give a semblance of an answer other than..ho hum..sh*t happens..

I will now, leave this thread and you can enjoy your audience without any further input by me (Frustrated you ask...damn right I am, I really do not like being totally ignored when someone says they know the stats better than others and refuses to even try to give some kind of answer when responding other than...ho hum......and not share except for a select few)

Done..moving on...have a nice day.

.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Most ppl until now voted NO.
Me included, and I'll try to explain why.
Its NOT, I repeat, NOT that I think the software is rigged.
The 'believers' here seem to think that there is no other possibility, its either 'truly random' and if not, its 'rigged' and we should find 'another hobby'.
I find that utterly lame, so please quit that 'another hobby' crap please.

Its just that we have no idea how the software/casino works exactly.
Is there one magical black box standing somewhere in the cellar with RNG written on it, spitting out random numbers like crazy for the entire casino?
Or does each game have its own dedicated RNG and is it nothing more than a piece of software?

If the first is true, it would not make any difference at all what slotgame we play.
There cannot possibly be 'hot' or 'cold' slots.
Each spin would be completely independent from any other spin and changing games because a certain game is kicking your a$$ is useless, you might just as wel stay with that one as your chances are exactly the same, no matter what you do.
I'm very sorry, but I just refuse to believe that.

Most slotplayers know that there ARE hot and cold streaks and that changing games CAN turn your luck for the better.
Oh, hell, maybe I'm just seeing faces in the clouds, but at least I'm not the only one.

What about the 'random' multipliers in for example Texan Tycoon?
Are these random?
Can't help but if the game plays like crap, the multipliers are also crap, 2x, maybe an occasional 3x, but if its paying it can throw the 10x in one after another.
You will also see that the pick'em free spins give 15 or 25 instead of the usual 8.

So thats why I THINK its not 100% random.
Not rigged, just in a way controlled.
And its not only RTG, the same goes for Microgaming and Rival.
With 100% truly random slots you would not see these extreme up and downswings all the time.
To be honest, I think truly random slots would be utterly boring to play.

Which is pretty much the same thing I said in my post. Truly random gaming would not have such hot and cold swings, by DEFINITION!

 

[Bencuri]

Ok, so there has been speculation about what the operators of RTG casinos can and cannot control. Some of it has been quite wild speculation, such as rumors of the proverbial "switch".

In the past month I have learned that the operator can control the RTP...sort of. Most recently I have learned that the random jackpot does not reset to the same amount in all casinos. At Rushmore I noticed one start off at $5000, not the normal $1000 like most. I also learned about reel symbols and how they can be changed by the casino. I also just learned that the rate the Random Jackpot accumulates is an operator setting.

Here is a potential biggie:
The rate a random jackpot builds is an operator setting in the back end. Have you ever played and felt nobody else was playing, since the number on the RJ was not moving? I thought the counter was broken recently. Support emailed me back and told me the game was set to only move 1c for every 50 spins at $1 per spin. Hence, it has been revealed that too is an operator setting. They can also make it look like the casino is quite busy changing this setting.

So my question is, how can we really trust RTG to be truely random? Does everyone really believe it is? How will we ever know for sure? How much trust do you all put on Technical Testing Sytems? I can put a label on my website too, telling me that the software has been tested for randomness. That doesn't make it true. I read a lot of complaints about the way the games play lately. It seems worse in the past couple years. I feel this too as I play.
Who are we small gamblers to question anything a casino tells us?

I have pretty much given up RTG as I have a gut feeling that what I suspect will soon come to light. Now I understand there has to be a winner once in awhile, and the casino has to continue to boast it's 95.6% payout or whatever they say. Who is watching over who is telling us all this? Yes, people, it's ok to question things!

Accoarding to my experience my opinion is that at RTG the payout is very bad. Earlier I liked playing at Breakaway Casino, when it was RTG. It was really a fun to play slots there. But in the recent years I can hardly get free spins at other RTG's, and Breakaway changed software by now. I have been playing for about 3 years at Club World, mostly on Fruit Frenzy, and I can count in on one hand how many times I hit a free spin combination, that is quite strange, I think. I sometimes get mach bonus offers with high percentage from RTG casinos, that are really charming, but when I consider how the slots behaved when I tired them, I decide not to take these bonuses. There is very high chance that no matter how good an offer is, there is only one direction for my balance, that is down.

This is also my opinion about Microgaming. I never deposit there for slots playing purposes. I could get free spins there much harder then at RTG. For example, I played hundereds of rounds on Thunderstruck and Loaded, and I never got a free spin so far, for several years now. I wonder if anyone still plays these games. Or there is the slot: Isis. I tried that many times for the free spin rounds, but on that slot I noticed it is even hard to hit a two symbol in a row combination. So probably it is useless to wait for the free spins, as the payout is so bad that it wouldn't return anything.

I had much more success at Playtech and NetEnt. There playing slots offers a much more exciting experience. For example just go to casinos like Prestige casino or Noble casino, and try games like Forest of Wonders or Incredible Hulk. It will be a much different experience then playing at RTG. I think Playtech and NetEnt has much better payout set for their slots.

 

[Simmo!]

I played hundereds of rounds on Thunderstruck ...and I never got a free spin so far, for several years now. I wonder if anyone still plays these games.

Me me me Still in my top 3 favourite slots.

Or there is the slot: Isis. I tried that many times for the free spin rounds, but on that slot I noticed it is even hard to hit a two symbol in a row combination. So probably it is useless to wait for the free spins, as the payout is so bad that it wouldn't return anything.

Probably the highest variance slot on the MG platform. Bonus rounds are rare, but can pay very big. I played this slot losing regularly for two years, but one $49,000 hit later (from a $12 bet) and suddenly I was up. That's what high variance is all about....but it's a risky business if you don't know how to handle it.

try games like Forest of Wonders

One of the lowest variance slots on the Playtech platform.

I know this is a topic that gets pulled apart on a regular basis, but it's really important to understand the variance of the slots you are playing to make sure you wager relative to your budget or you will have lots of short, crap sessions.

There playing slots offers a much more exciting experience. For example just go to casinos like Prestige casino or Noble casino, and try games like Forest of Wonders or Incredible Hulk. It will be a much different experience then playing at RTG. I think Playtech and NetEnt has much better payout set for their slots.

I agree about the exciting experience bit. But it's largely because their slots are lower variance than RTG's Real Series slots - with some exceptions like Panther Moon. The RTG slots "Caesar's (not so magical) Empire" and "Derby Dollars" are about the closest you'll get to low variance.

 

[jod5413]

Dogboy,

I believe that most of Casinomeister members are thrilled that you explain and help us to understand the in and outs of RTG slots and random jackpots. Please don't let the few naysayers run you off.

I believe RTG slots are random, always have, always will. I belong to the gang of "they don't need to cheat to get our money". I do understand the frustration of slots gamblers, however.

I am no expert about any of this but my theory for the last couple years has been this.

When the US govt. came up with the stupid idea of on line gambling being wrong I, a lot of on line players were lost. It is a well known fact that the vast majority of on line players were from the USA.

If a big loss of slots players happened, the games would not have as much play time every day. That would result in less wins overall, since there were less spins.

I am not having an easy time explaining what I'm getting at. Hopefully someone more able to state what I am trying to say will jump in to help!

 

[bb28]

Well damn.......It was a interesting thread until Dogboy got fed up and left. Can't say I blame him.

silcnlayc, I don't understand where you are coming from, you are obviously sure in your mind that the software cheats.......and you are well entitled to that opinion, but what I don't understand is why you keep playing, so why do you? ??
I don't mean to be rude, but it gets tiresome reading your theories over and over again.

 

[spearmaster]

Dogboy -

I have said once before, and will gladly say again - I enjoy reading your posts and your technical information. I find them to be amongst the best and most useful posts on CM.

Don't let one or two posters get your goat!

 

[vegetagirl2008]

Well damn.......It was a interesting thread until Dogboy got fed up and left. Can't say I blame him.

silcnlayc, I don't understand where you are coming from, you are obviously sure in your mind that the software cheats.......and you are well entitled to that opinion, but what I don't understand is why you keep playing, so why do you? ??
I don't mean to be rude, but it gets tiresome reading your theories over and over again.

We can go over the same issue until we are blue in the face. We can create theories that are suited to our own needs or explanations as to why we feel cheated somehow. IMO it just a stream of bad luck not the software. I have stopped playing online because I was losing my money and I've grown tired of the playing the same slots over and over. So if they wanted to stop they will or threads like this will be the same scenario over and over.

 

[Pinababy69]

I find them to be amongst the best and most useful posts on CM.

Amen to that....and seconded!!

 

[4 of a kind]

Dogboy,If a big loss of slots players happened, the games would not have as much play time every day. That would result in less wins overall, since there were less spins.

I don't know facts about slots either, but I would think if there were more winners with more spins from more players, the amount of losing players would also increase the same.

Years ago I became very friendly with someone at Golden Palace (before they left the USA market, and were the top dog, long before eventually becoming rogue.) I don't know what his actual position was, but I know he was the boss of all the reps that you spoke to on the phone. Any special requests always had to be approved by him. We became rather friendly and spoke often and long on the phone about the casino business, my business, our families, etc. Once a month, based on my monthly play he would personally decide what I would get back in cash. I don't think bonuses with play through even existed back then, or at least as far as I knew. The only way to get cash back was based on your play, or promotional events. You didn't have to play anything with it if you didn't want to. Any cash back was immediately available for withdrawal. Oh, how I miss the good ole days.

Anyhow, he once told me that the best time to play was during the off hours when the least players are playing. His claim was the more people that are playing the less chances I have of winning.

I don't know if his comment holds any water, but I still think of it today. I always played at all different times of the day and night then and still do. I also wondered what would be considered the off time to play. I live in New York via eastern standard time. Since online casinos take wagers from all over the world, what would be considered the actual off times? I knew they were based in Canada, same time as me. Then I wondered if he meant during the week like Monday to Thursday similar to land based slow times. I should have made him elaborate on this, but didn't think much of it back then until the years playing online started to pile on, and never forgot what he said. I no doubt can confirm now that in fact I noticed when I actually am having banner sessions, it's usually at weird times at least where I live. I'm up many times at 5am and play often at this time and had many of my best sessions during this time. Many other great sessions were during the middle of the week. Great sessions are still very rare during the weekends, although I had a few.

I also noticed that RTG software consistently fly's during the week and early hours, and during weekends it's slower with many pauses between hands.

After eleven years of playing online, coincidence or not I noticed this. I should only play at these times, but the degenerate that I am, if I got the time to play regardless of the times or the days, I'll be playing anyway. I certainly am not going to start setting my alarm clock to wake me up, so I could play at certain times. But as of lately I seem to be playing during prime times, and the way things have been going I should maybe reconsider the alarm clock, or wait till the weekend is over.

 

[johnsteed]

***



Interesting thread.



I can only speak for myself, by I played with the 'hope' that I could perhaps win big, or at least get a decent size win to withdraw with.



I never felt happy when losing. At the same time, there were varying degrees of unhappiness based on any particular session.



A) If I deposited $100, and was spinning at $1-2 per spin on RTG slots, and lost within a few minutes, I shouldn't be all that surprised (mind you I haven't done this much over the past couple of years). In the end, I wouldn't be happy, but hardly angry or depressed because I was basically sticking my chin out waiting to get smacked anyway. No surprises there.



B) If I deposited $100, got white hot (on the very odd occasion), and took it up to a substantial amount, more than I had anticipated (as I'm generally just looking to double my investment), and broke my initial plan to withdraw at a certain targeted amount, did well, but only to eventually go bust, then I'm more numb than anything. I'm unhappy once I come to my senses, and truly disappointed with myself more than anything.



C) If I deposited $150 with a monthly match bonus at a reputable casino, losing month after month, when I'm only placing bets in the .09-27 cents range, and losing it within a couple/few hours time, then I'm very unhappy. I'm unhappy (and likely bitter) because there wasn't even a hint of 'hope' that I could win big, and if this repeats itself over dozens of deposits, it's hard trying to contain my resentment, by being 'level-headed'.



Personally, if people cry "rigged" when they've experience something similar to examples A) or B), it's VERY hard to feel any sympathy for them. They've either bet too much too soon, or that they had the golden opportunity to withdraw a substantial amount, only to lose focus while nodding off to delusions of grandeur while the reels were spinning.



But if it's example C), and the sessions repeat themselves all the time, and they're betting small amounts, and going bust in a very short amount of time, with little value on their deposits, with little to no hint of 'hope'/'entertainment'/'adventure' etc, then I would understand if they're searching for reasons for their lousy gameplay; because 'luck' should swing both ways and it hasn't been for ages.



If they've been playing at the same casino for a year or even years, deposited thousands of dollars, and have never been able to double-up from where their initial balance was at, and their money just drops down in moments just like the last time, just like the time before that, and just like the dozens of times before that, it's hard coming away from the experience without wondering if they're not getting a fair shake at winning.




Looking at the other side of the spectrum, if the other camp fully accepts that the games aren't rigged, that betting systems don't work, and that the player will ultimately be on the wrong side of variance in the long run anyway, which is accepted here as being the 'mature' way of looking at it, and by that I mean that they've REALLY accepted it, not just understand it, but accept it as truth, I can't completely understand why they would want to continue playing either. It's hard fathoming that either side fully endorses being on the wrong side of variance over the long haul, committed to losing when all is said and done, at least from a player's perspective; that being mine.



I can understand if someone is gambling for fun - knowing that they're likely not going to win - which is something they might do every couple of months or so at the local bingo hall/casino, but let's face it, if someone is coming here everyday, posting everyday, you'd have to think that the members here (those who are players), are quite serious about online gambling, to the point where it can't just be about 'fun' anymore.



*The term 'rigged' to everyone in the online industry, gets so many knee-jerk responses, you'd think it was on par with calling someone a racist.



***



"Luck is the residue of opportunity and design." - Branch Rickey



One more point I'd like to add, which is about 'luck'. If the software isn't rigged or at least manipulated, there's still a house edge/variance, and there are software providers (or the casinos) who can adjust their payouts, and all of that other stuff, there's really not much left over for any kind of a real unfabricated 'luck' factor, now is there?



Maybe my understanding of it all isn't necessarily correct, but that's the way I interpret it.




Steed


***

 

[takethemoney]

I just wanted to take a quick moment here to thank dogboy for his very interesting feedback. There were many things he has pointed out that I did not know. I hope he will continue to post.

Anyway, there are many interesting posts here. It was never my intent to get into conflict with anyone here. Seeking information on gut rooted suspicions is what this thread was all about, as well as to see what more we can learn. Information is king, as far as I am concerned when it comes to gambling.

Now, I have a question for anyone who may know. Can slot payouts be directly tied to bonuses? I have taken countless comp chips at countless places over the years and seriously never won on them. I notice that the software refuses to hit feature rounds on these chips mostly.

 

[KasinoKing]

That's what I was told, yes. A request to change RTP (to only one of 3 settings btw) affects all RS slots simultaneously apparently.

That can not be correct because they don't all have 3 settings.
Some only have 91% & 94%, while some only have 95% & 97.5%.
A few of the progressives only have 94%.

It is my belief (i.e. I have no facts to back it up), that a casino can request each individual slot be set to different RPT.

KK

 

[Simmo!]

That can not be correct because they don't all have 3 settings.
Some only have 91% & 94%, while some only have 95% & 97.5%.
A few of the progressives only have 94%.

It is my belief (i.e. I have no facts to back it up), that a casino can request each individual slot be set to different RPT.

KK

Actually, it's likely they come in "sets" linked by the RJ seed value, but thats speculative and how many sets, no idea. I did actually speak to one of the RTG's about publishing the RPTs on their website with a positive response which went along the lines of "don't see why not, but most will just show a flat 95%". I'll go back and jog their memory.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Dogboy, if every poster that got insulted once in a while, left the board, the board would be EMPTY.... Hell, some people even get Insulted with their first post in the, "Welcome" section....

As regards the OP. 'LUCK' is the name of the game. I remember Phil Heimluth, the poker player, getting knocked out on day 1 of a poker tournament to a Noob, who make his hand on the turn & river, to beat Phils 3 A's. He walked away saying, "If LUCK was not involved, I would Win everytime".

Here is an Example. You take the 15,000+ spin Roulette book. Each number should hit 406 times. Most of them fell into that range, hitting between 380 to 420 times, or thereabouts.

Buuuuuuut, the #21 hit so many times, that if you had been flat betting on it, you could have bought a house with the winnings. And the #3 hit so Few times, that you would be crying, Foul, Cheaters, Rigged Game, and so on, if you had been betting that number.

So, imhop, If you take 37 people from this board, and we all pick a Roulette # to bet on, and we all log into the same casino, and play, most would lose/win a little, and some would lose/win a little more, but at least one of us would make a killing, and one would get wiped out........

And that is only with 37 players. How many people gamble on the Internet?