Who should be left accountable, the casino or the software provider?

[johnsteed]

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Hello fellow forum members!




In light of some of the recent threads, as well as some of my own issues with specific casinos, I have some thoughts to share and questions to ask on the topic of the casino in relation to the software provider.



At what point will the casino (in general) stop hiding behind the software provider? To be more clear, when people complain about the RNG, or software glitches, or payouts, or whatever one can come up with, the casino will quickly tell you that they're not responsible for the outcome of any game, or any mistake/error with the software.



Well, that would be okay if the software providers spoke-up once in a while, answered queries, instead of just being the silent partner. But... everyone knows that they never say anything. They really don't reveal anything about themselves, we just have to trust what we hear and read despite not really ever knowing anything about how it all works. So, I think that the casino IS responsible BECAUSE the software provider never answers any question directly or even indirectly.



If K-Mart (of all places) sells me a Star Wars: X-Wing back in '83 without a Luke Skywalker action figure (which is supposed to be in the box as advertised on the box), does K-Mart say that they have no control over that, it's up to the people at Kenner to give you answers? Someone might say that my example is poor, but people who sell the product - the casino/poker room - are the one's who are "generally" responsible for fixing the problem.



I get so sick of hearing that any problem is out of the hands of the casino. I recently had a problem in a poker room, during a Sit&Go tournament, and I was disconnected. The poker lobby was still active, but the game windows (playing multiple tables) were closed in the middle of the tournament. It turns out, that the software provider either had a crash, or was performing a sudden upgrade. The fee to enter the tournaments wasn't instantly credited, and I had to pursue them (with vigor and conviction) to get my (roughly) $13.00 back. The casino/poker room, wouldn't credit me (at that time) because the software provider (MG) didn't have sufficient enough proof that my funds were lost (even though they KNOW that this crash/update occurred).



Needless to say, I was so pissed off with MG, the casino/poker room, and the way they mishandled all of it. I was credited after countless emails, so I'm not necessarily upset with the management of that poker room at this point in time, but what if it had been for hundred of dollars, and not for $13 USD?



The site claimed that they couldn't refund me until MG was satisfied with the information that I could provide for them. Odd, don't they have all of that on file? Can't they access their own software? MG was taking a stand, but I find it funny that they couldn't contact me directly. I've sent them about half-a-dozen emails over the past several years (since '02), and have yet to get a response on any of them.



So, why do casinos always do the "you win some you lose some and you're due for a huge win soon" when they claim they have no control over the RNG. They don't even know (as they'll conveniently tell you when you complain about payouts) that's all up to MG, so how can they pass along sufficient information on to the customer?



"Simmo!" talked about the need for more transparency, and I think that this is one of them. For the life of me, I don't feel sorry for the casino taking heat when the player is losing his/her shirt and wants to vent about it. They sell the MG product, that's where the customer goes to play it, that's who needs to address the customers problems (directly and not any other way). They're both in the business to make money, to which they more than likely do, the player generally loses (as expected), but when the player complains (which is just as expected as losing), they don't like it. Well, of course they don't, and I don't blame them for not liking it, but I also feel for the player that lost, and I don't think that's wrong either.



They say that the player can't cry foul because they knew what they were getting into, but in the same breath, the casino can't cry about having to deal with complaints because they're in the industry where the customer is on the losing side of things. What do they expect, "Boy, that RNG really kicked-me-around good today... wow... that was entertaining even if the payout was at just 79%... I can't wait to come back... don't worry about me, I don't complain because I fully accept that I'm going to lose in the end"!


Two things:



a) This nonsense of the support rep./casino manager coming in and saying (for example) "Oh, that darn RNG is a wee bit hungry this time, I sure wish you could win, maybe that win is coming real soon, but you know what, we can't control anything on our end" isn't really a satisfying answer. In fact, it's insulting. I'm going to be told that it's wrong to think the way I do, but for playing at almost every notable casino over the better part of the past 10 years, I think I'm well informed enough and worthy enough to make my feelings heard on this one.



b) I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that people gamble in hopes of winning. The entertainment is winning (not just for the sake of killing time), that's why gamblers are gamblers, and the hopes of the gambler is to make that HUGE hit to take them to that next level. If a gambler fully accepts, I mean 100% accepts, buys into and realizes that they're doomed for failure, why continue? People may say that they completely understand that they're going to lose, but do they completely accept that they're going to lose is a different story. I think if someone accepts that it's hopeless, because enough people say that they're okay with being on the losing side of variance for the sake of "entertainment", then what would provoke you to continue playing? It's one thing to say that you understand what it all means, it's another thing to realize that winning isn't in the cards and over many years will result in heavy losses.



I love gambling, I'm a gambler, and I have a problem accepting that I can't win in the end, after all of these years, so I will no longer be depositing at any casino site. But, what choice do I have once I've completely realized that I can't get ahead in the end? I will play poker, I've worked VERY hard and put in a ton of time at improving my game & knowledge of the game, and it fulfills my need to gamble (although with more skill than luck), but I won't play at any casino again. Having said that, if there was no poker, sadly, I probably wouldn't stop playing at the casinos, because I always hope - that's a part of being a gambler and being very competitive - that a HUGE win will do wonders for me, and hey, there's one just around the corner. It could happen, but it likely won't. The games are tons of fun, but I hate that feeling of getting desperate to come up with some cash after a losing sessions, and justifying that I was just unlucky again.



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Another question I wanted to ask concerns instant payouts. I've read enough times that an online banking option such as NeTeller, can allow anyone to withdraw and deposit instantly. Some sites (however many are left) in the past allowed instant withdrawals; instant as in a second. Most casinos say that they're holding onto the player's funds, for security reasons (although some of those places won't allow the player to flush, or will reverse the flush in an instant... which are both bad), or that the costs of instant withdrawals is too expensive for them to do.



Well then, why not allow the player to pay for the cost of the instant withdrawal? Really now! I'm 100% certain that players would pay for this, to get it back as instantly as humanly possible. People lose sleep over waiting to get paid. You know, when people go weeks/months/years at a time without withdrawing, suddenly they finally win something, they're likely to be a bit on edge about getting their funds, and they aren't absolutely comfortable as to whether or not the funds will arrive, and the fun and the experience turns into something less than meets the eye. In fact, it's cruel. At the very least, give the player the option to pay for it, instead of using the excuse that it's too expensive. Hey, playing and losing is REALLY expensive!



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One last thought (if you're still there) is that it's often said that the casinos aren't paying-out like before because of the tough times economically (globally). I just think that's absurd. If that were true, I'm not saying that it is or isn't, that's so ethically wrong. A solidly operated casino with a strong enough client base, should be more than capable to feed themselves through a bear market.




Steed


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[KasinoKing]

I had to vote "Casino" though I feel the Software Provider SHOULD be the one who takes the stick for any software problems.
But like you said - they might as well live in a different solar system, the chance regular players have of contacting them.

Well then, why not allow the player to pay for the cost of the instant withdrawal? Really now! I'm 100% certain that players would pay for this, to get it back as instantly as humanly possible. People lose sleep over waiting to get paid.

No, no and more NO!
I understand where you're coming from, but there should never be a charge for paying out "as fast as humanly possible" - casinos should always pay as fast as possible as standard, like 3Dice for example.
If casinos said players who paid a premium would get paid quickly, it would give then yet another excuse to pay everyone else slower!

KK

[newguy68]

I can tell you for a fact that checkup that is done on your account when you request a withdrawal takes just a few minutes, maybe up to 10 if sommething looks suspicios.
The 24 hours "pending" period and other stupid stuff is just another sneaky way from the casino for you to try and to lose that money.
And beleive me mate, you will lose it.

[rockycatt]

in my eyes it's a simple [the casino] , like the department store thing example you bring it back to the point of purchase then they deal with the manufacture or reseler thats all in retail lesson (101)

[Westland Bowl]

If I were to complain at, for example, Sun Vegas Casino about 7 Sultans Casino unfair play, the Sun Vegas reps would say "take to 7 Sultans, not us." They wouldn't contact the software provider, Microgaming, about it. Since I signed up through a casino to play at a casino, then I deal with that casino, not the software provider. It's the responsibility of the casino to deal with software provider for any situations that would involve the software provider.

I can tell you that each casino "plays" different even if they use the same software provider, at least in the case of blackjack. So somehow the casino has *some* type of control over how the cards come out. Recently, I requested an audit of my play at a casino and the casino contacted Microgaming. Microgaming sent me the audit results which basically just seems to be a log of my play without the card results. There were no conclusions as to whether the play was random or not. If it was, I'm sure there would be conclusions drawn to state that, but since there isn't....well, I would assume it to be the opposite. This casino is an accredited one here.

Anyway, if the software provider is the one at fault, then it's the casino's responsibility since the player signed up with the casino, not the software provider.

[Simmo!]

Regards the main question, I'd actually suggest thinking about the licensing jurisdiction. They are keen to attract these businesses, offer licences and take the money, should they not also have some accountability for who they licence? Just a thought. How often do you hear of suspicions levelled about a casino licenced in Alderney? Not often, if ever.

Regards the withdrawals part I agree. 3Dice do this - they allow you to withdraw up to $2,000 instantly via Neteller but any more and the fee is displayed, and you get a choice whether you accept it or not. If you do, you can continue withdrawing instantly. Good solution. Meanwhile, Blue Square and Laddies do close-to-instant (sometimes takes an hour or 3) without any fees.

[Mavin1]

Well said Johnsteed!

It is no different than taking your complaint or returning an item to your supervisor or local store. We have been taught to go through the chain of command first.
When there are issues with a product then the merchants that are giving you this product that is unsatisfactory, they need to be prodding the manufacturer to produce a better product. If you bought that Star Wars toy at Kmart or Walmart and it was defective then you should not be expected to go to or contact the China manufacturer for a refund or a replacement. This is the responsibility of the store you bought it from and they are required to correct the problem.

Again, the chain of command!

Also I agree that the global economy is not the reason either for the changes in play/wins. They have made millions/billions on the backs of players globally and yes they could easily weather any global changes for a very long time.

I also agree with your comment that most players are not playing for "entertainment" only, they play for the expected win. Anyone that does play for simple entertainment has more money than they need or know what to do with, so changes in line win cuts, bonus/freespin features rarely happening anymore, wouldn't matter one iota to them as the money isn't the drive they are playing for in the first place.
But I will bet probably 75% of the playing audience do play for the expected and promised wins, we were getting them on a regular basis a few years ago and now many many players are voicing that now they/we/me aren't.
Loyalty can go out the window pretty darned fast when you are always just feeding the pig. If I am going to just give my money away anymore, I will hunt down the poor and hungry on the streets (which I already do) and give it to them as there is more satisfaction in feeding the poor than feeding the pig.

[johnsteed]

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KasinoKing

No, no and more NO!
I understand where you're coming from, but there should never be a charge for paying out "as fast as humanly possible" - casinos should always pay as fast as possible as standard, like 3Dice for example.
If casinos said players who paid a premium would get paid quickly, it would give then yet another excuse to pay everyone else slower!

Okay, so let's keep everything as is? So, if we ask for them to give the player the option to pay for an instant withdrawal, they're going to find another way to punish the player? What a crap industry if you think about it. I'm not saying that your point is wrong, but it's almost like saying that we don't want to upset them, so let them do as they do even if it's really not that good.



Yes, the standard should be as 3Dice does, but it isn't the standard, and it'll likely never be the standard. Personally, I think they're already punishing the player by making him/her wait for hours/days to receive their winnings. People will say, "chill-out, what's the rush?", but I'm certain for those that don't win much on a regular basis, can't stop thinking about their funds hitting their banking account. It's not a "fun" feeling, until you know you've got your winnings. That in itself, takes away a lot of the "fun" from the experience. And... I would think that because the players aren't getting their funds back swiftly, they tend to have more of a give-up attitude, and talk themselves into reversing their funds (which plays into the hands of the casino).



People talk about how some casinos pay out in 6 hours, 12 hours, or the following business day, as though it's lighting quick. This is generally thought of as "instant". How is anything less than a few seconds "instant" exactly? Even a place like Dominoes Pizza wouldn't be so bold as to say "Instant Pizza". Fast isn't really fast when it's 6 hours. It's only "fast" because some sites take 5 business days to pay out, so we give the casinos that do pay out the same day tons of credit for doing so. But frankly, if Phoenician, and the defunct CasinoAction group could do it instantly, why can't the others?



Steed


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[gloria460]

At least MCG/PlatinumPlay, sloto and clubworld will flush instantly upon request and don't charge fees. I don't have any of those casinos on my puter anymore. What good is instant if ya can't win...

[4 of a kind]

I think long time gambling veterans like myself speak from experience when we talk about the expectations of losing in the long run. Having experienced the long run myself I too fell victim to the house edge.

If I never won from the beginning I would have quit after my first year at it. That means I would have quit back in 1975 when I started playing tips from a trainer at a Trotters Racetrack in N.Y. So it goes without saying that it's the wins that keep you coming back for more.

Most of my career at gambling was done in Atlantic City, which included most of the best food on the east coast, along with great shows, and some of the best times and entertainment I ever experienced throughout my life. Now throw gambling in with that and the sky turns blue with flowers everywhere.

In addition I can't even begin to tell you how many times I left there with my pockets and my wife's bag jammed with winning cash. On rare occasions I even took home casino checks not being comfortable carrying that much cash around. So like I said before after experiencing the wins, is what keeps you playing with hopes of the life changing win.

Although experience after 35 years and not hitting the life changing win (yet) we still play with the hopes of always winning every time we risk a single penny gambling.

The last 8 or so years I pretty much left the fast lane and now gamble in the granny lane. The money I'm willing to risk now along with my visits to land based casinos is minimal. This doesn't mean I'm playing online just to piss my money away, I'm playing with my lucky souvenir pyramid from Egypt sitting under my monitor with the hopes of knocking one of these casinos for a loop.

No one gambles with the hopes of losing. Online I have hit several 5 digit wins and one 6 digit win. Yet, my experience tells me that eventually even my online winnings will be lost if I keep playing.

Me and many others will tell you we play for fun and expect to lose. But expecting to lose from experience does not mean we are not hoping to win.
Being up 5k and really sending it in trying to hit the big one is fun. Even if you lose it all back. But constantly getting hammered deposit after deposit is not fun.

The ultimate experience for a gambler would be to deposit once on January first, and play the whole year without ever having to deposit again in search of that life changing win, and go bust on December 31...

I still play online casinos always with the hope of the big cash out. But if the cash out isn't big enough it just turns into more ammo.

As far as your question who should be liable the casino or the software provider, is a good question and most are going to say the casino. Unfortunately, the bottom line will be the same when it comes to online casinos, no response.

Like I said before in many threads, we are dealing predominantly with low-end, high-risk, third world governments and online casinos that don't give a rats ass about you or me or what anyone here have to say or request.

Whenever there are good debates here looking for real answers from casinos or software providers from the people that really mean something, their past 100% ZERO response should be enough to tell you how much of a rats ass they really care.

The only vague answers we could get is when Bryan chases connections. Why can't these connections come on here and confront us in person? I would assume they would eventually be exposed that its about the money and nothing to do with us.