New Rival casinos - lost the bonus plot?

[KasinoKing]

At least 3 new Rival casinos will go live in September (two already have), but I my fear that they will follow the other recent new ones with totally unrealistic sign-up bonuses is being realised...

In my opinion the "industry standard" should be what Microgaing have;
30 times the bonus amount, and fully cashable.
This still makes the bonus +EV for the casino, but at least it gives the players a realistic chance of completing the WR without losing their whole deposit.
If Microgaming casino can do this, why can't Rival casinos????

A good example was new Ruby Royal who launched last month with a ridiculous WR of Bonus x 50 and to make it 10 x worse it was Phantom!
They did reduce this to Bonus x 30 when I pointed out how ludicrous it was, but it still remains phantom.

The first new Rival this month has gone with Bonus x 60 - only TWICE what MG casinos offer...

The second new Rival this month has gone with this:-

DaftRival2.JPG
(Note: The word "reversal" is the worst spelling of the word "deposit" that I have ever seen!)

I am almost speechless about this one. Surely this is the WORST sign-up bonus anywhere on the internet!
For slots you have to wager Bonus x 160...
For the allowed card games it's Bonus x 320...
If that's not ludicrous enough - it's PHANTOM!!!

It you took the maximum bonus & played slots you would have to wager $64,000 and get a return of 100% or more on games with an average RTP of 96% in order to be able to cash out anything...
Do you feel lucky, punk? ... Well, do you?


As an affiliate and as a player these bonuses are totally useless to me - I certainly wouldn't take a bonus with such a crazy WR, and I wouldn't expect many other players would either.
I'm still listing ALL the Rivals on my site because despite their insane welcome bonuses I still trust them to treat their players fairly, and some people are happy to try new places without taking bonuses. Not for me, but that's their prerogative!


So what do YOU think - have most new Rival casinos lost the plot over bonuses?
Or do you think they are just trying to encourage people to play without bonuses?

KK

[zebedy]

The bonuses have deffinately been creeping up over the last 5/6/7/8/9 rivals that have been brought out,
Hence ive never deposited a dime with them,and probably never will,
there has to be a reason why there W/R is so high ?
i think some people/opperators have seen how popular rival have become and are trying to jump on the badwagon,maybe without a decent startup bankroll and are putting incredibly ludicrous restrictions on W/Rs as not to get hit big,
as we all know a $1 bet can win you $1000 on some of there slots and if the W/R are only 15x you would expect to cash out something,but with a W/R of 60x plus the chance is probably zero,

I blame the smart bonus hunters like yourself casino's are catching on to it

[3Dice]

In my opinion the "industry standard" should be what Microgaing have;
30 times the bonus amount, and fully cashable.
This still makes the bonus +EV for the casino, but at least it gives the players a realistic chance of completing the WR without losing their whole deposit.

Hi KK,

30 times bonus, fully casheable is very much -EV for the casino.

I know the formula you and others here at CM use all the time that
arrives you at that conclusion - but that formula is fundamentally
flawed. (in short - those that lose don't generate enough playthrough,
but the bonus money went in the machine - and will come out.)

Instead of trying to understand it starting from that flawed formula,
lets do it the other way around. I'll simplify the game setup in this
sample so its easier to follow.

As game we will use a simplified slot machine. A high variance one
since that's easier to think about. Our simple slot machine has three
reels with 10 symbols each. There's 9 loser and 1 win symbol on each
reel. There's only one center winline so we can immeadiately see that
the winning combination occurs 1 in 1000 times on average. It's a 95%
machine so the win combination pays out 950 times betsize.

Now, a thousand people signup to play this slot at KK's casino. (good
name btw). They all take advantage of the bonus offer where the WR
is 30 times the bonus amount, and they all deposit 5 to do a single spin.
Lets look at the maths ..

1000 people deposit $5 = $5.000
100% bonus from KK casino = $5.000

999 people lose their spin : $9990 in total stake, house edge on this stake : 499.5

1 person hits and wins $9500 - stake there is $10, house edge on that is .5

This person now has $140 left in wagering ($5*30-$10) .. assuming those 14 spins are
all losers (he could hit again - chance of that is ~1.4%) he generates another
$140 in stake with an extra house edge of 7.

So KK casino spends $5000 in bonuses and makes back 507 - a net loss for the
casino of 4493. Now as the machines become less variant that number goes down,
but for the bonus to become a no-loss deal for the casino, the total stake
must be $100.000 which would represent a machine so low variant its highest
win would be more in the range of 2 times betsize..

In short, 30 times B and fully casheable is very much player EV+. If you
only play under those conditions and you play high variance slots, then
you are sure to end up ahead.

Cheers,

Enzo

[KasinoKing]

So KK casino spends $5000 in bonuses and makes back 507 - a net loss for the casino of 4493...

Riiiiiiiight....
Well I don't know mate, but I reckon one of us is barking mad!

I'm not going to pretend I understand your example at all, but this is the maths I use:-

Player deposits $100 and get $100 bonus.
WR Bx30 = $3,000
Player wagers $3,000 on a 95% slot; return = $3,000 x 95% = $2,850
$3,000 - $2,850 = player loss of $150.
He started with $200 but $100 was bonus chips, therefore he has lost $50 of his deposit.
The casino has made +$50.

I'm sorry, but I can't see any way you can argue against that...

KK

PS: If what you're saying is true, how come all the 80+ MG casinos who offer Bx30 bonus haven't gone bust yet?

PPS: I don't know what you're smoking today... but Robwin wants some of it!

[Nifty29]

Well I received a ND welcome chip of $50 a Vegas Days Casino.

The terms were:

100xB WR
Max cashout = $50
Bonus non-withdrawable

Tough to beat that one!

Oh, and some of the emails I received with follow-up offers said "Get 200% bonus at Rockbet!". Well lets hope they didnt want the connection kept secret.

I may be adding something VERY interesting to this discussion in the next 7 days which will make your hair curl, but I am doing the right thing for the moment and letting some processes take their course.

[3Dice]

Riiiiiiiight....
Well I don't know mate, but I reckon one of us is barking mad!

I'm not going to pretend I understand your example at all, but this is the maths I use:-

Player deposits $100 and get $100 bonus.
WR Bx30 = $3,000
Player wagers $3,000 on a 95% slot; return = $3,000 x 95% = $2,850
$3,000 - $2,850 = player loss of $150.
He started with $200 but $100 was bonus chips, therefore he has lost $50 of his deposit.
The casino has made +$50.

I'm sorry, but I can't see any way you can argue against that...

To see the error in your thinking just repeat it 100 times at high risk bets.

so you loose 99 times in one big 200 bet .. after 99 times there's how much in the machine ? 99*$200 = 19800. When you win, on average it will be 95% of that so 95% of 20k = 19k. And then you got 3000 WR to clear ..

KK

PS: If what you're saying is true, how come all the 80+ MG casinos who offer Bx30 bonus haven't gone bust yet?

Because they dont offer it on each deposit.

PPS: I don't know what you're smoking today... but Robwin wants some of it!

Cheers,

Enzo

[KasinoKing]

Oh, and some of the emails I received with follow-up offers said "Get 200% bonus at Rockbet!". Well lets hope they didnt want the connection kept secret.

I don't think that's ever been a secret - Vegas Days is a sister casino to Rockbet.
What I'm slightly confused about is "Rockbet John" who was supposed to have left This is Vegas to manage Rockbet - but there are still so many similarities & ties between these two (now three) casinos that I can't believe he no longer has any involvement with TiV...

I may be adding something VERY interesting to this discussion in the next 7 days which will make your hair curl...

Sorry, that's impossible.
All my hair fell out when I read the terms of that new Rival casino today...

KK

[silcnlayc]

Bonuses are gifts with attachments, not a players right. If you do not like the attachment to the gift, refuse the gift. Simple. JMO...

.

[anniemac]

While you are correct about bonuses being a gift with attachments, I think the point of this thread is why give a "gift" and then make it impossible to enjoy.

If I get a bonus offer, either ND or deposit, the very first thing I look at is the wagering requirements. Why in the world would I take a 100% deposit bonus with 80x wagering requirements non cashable when I can get a 100% deposit bonus with a 30x wagering requirement that is fully cashable.

Bonuses like the ones with the huge wagering requirements remind me of Cirrus etal.

I'm not a bonus wh**re either. I play as much with as without but I won't spend my money on a bonus that I believe I will never be able to meet.

[silcnlayc]

Why in the world would I take a 100% deposit bonus with 80x wagering requirements non cashable when I can get a 100% deposit bonus with a 30x wagering requirement that is fully cashable.

Exactly my point...a lousy gift is still just a lousy gift...JMO

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