Another Top Game screw up

[Rusty]

Hi Rusty,

Thank you for the latter part of your post, I understand the mixed feelings and I appreciate you being neutral in your viewpoint.

I think I made a mistake when answering the question regarding the graphics, and from there stems the confusion. If you'll read I said I was referring to the missing symbol problem we talked about some time ago. Regarding the missing jackpot which I now understand is the issue, I'm not sure if this was done by TopGame or the casino itself, can you please direct me to the thread with the screen shot of the jackpot before and after? I will take that to TopGame and find a real answer for you, with a why and a when (both past and future). I will contact Pina for that information as well.

As regarding the true slots/graphics issue - What I'm saying is that the game behaved as if the symbol was there, the only problem was cosmetic, meaning there was a glitch in the graphics, it did not involve other areas of the game engine and that is why no one was affected or actually claimed to be as I understand it. Of course it was a horrible mistake because we cannot ask players to trust a slots machine that has missing symbols, that's why we have been devoting many hours lately to QA and have finally begun the TST process, which should hopefully end within the month, its in their hands and I hope that we'll live up to the standard, even if you don't think we have one yet I promise you we do, and ever strive to solve any issues that fall beneath it.

Kind Regards,

Noah

Rome Casino

Thanks Noah,
I am abrasive and hard but ultimately fair I hope.

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm afraid you have still failed to answer my question about the "glitch" which is understandable as you are not in the Topgame technical department and it is they that should be answering these concerns directly.

I will try one more time to explain what the problem is with the explanations offered thus far.
I know these can be difficult problems to understand but though these are based on technical knowledge they are actually logic problems so if you are not sure you understand something read it again and break it down piece by piece.
I understand there can be some very unusual and unforeseen side effects caused by seemingly disparate functions in programming where data is shared globally but this appears to be something else.

Firstly there is no explanation of how a graphic update (which for the explanation to be even plausible must of included the slot symbols) can have only a local effect.
ie Reels 1 and 5 and Two symbols.
Common sense dictates that all the Wild symbols should have disappeared because the update was applied to them all.
This is why I think my contention that it was the game mechanics that were being changed has much more relevance.

Secondly there is no evidence that any graphic update was implemented, there is only evidence that the Wild symbol from Reel 1 and Reel 2 was removed.

Thirdly there is no explanation what this graphic update actually was.

Fourthly (and this is the real Daddy) there is the contradictory nature of the statement that the Jackpot could not be won and that the payout was not affected! (Topgame themselves stated the Jackpot could not be won)

Even if we ignore that (which we wont) there is still the problem of how the game could function as if the symbol were there.
This would not be possible if it is a genuine slot where 5 reel stop positions are generated by the RNG.
Yes you could have the correct payout but the graphic representation on the reels would not match the payout.
In other words another symbol would represent the Wild symbol and all other symbols would almost certainly lose their identities too.
So the player would see a non winning line giving a payout and a winning line not paying out. This is a simple fact yet there is no evidence this was the case.
So to makes this clear try to answer this; (I am not having a go at you I am just trying to explain why the argument you are making is flawed)
Even if we say Topgame were mistaken and the Jackpot could still be won what would the winning combination of symbols have been?
If they are correct and the Jackpot could not be won (my understanding) how can payout not be affected?
When you think about that you will understand what I am getting at.

[RomeCasino]

Thanks Noah,
I am abrasive and hard but ultimately fair I hope.

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm afraid you have still failed to answer my question about the "glitch" which is understandable as you are not in the Topgame technical department and it is they that should be answering these concerns directly.

I will try one more time to explain what the problem is with the explanations offered thus far.
I know these can be difficult problems to understand but though these are based on technical knowledge they are actually logic problems so if you are not sure you understand something read it again and break it down piece by piece.
I understand there can be some very unusual and unforeseen side effects caused by seemingly disparate functions in programming where data is shared globally but this appears to be something else.

Firstly there is no explanation of how a graphic update (which for the explanation to be even plausible must of included the slot symbols) can have only a local effect.
ie Reels 1 and 5 and Two symbols.
Common sense dictates that all the Wild symbols should have disappeared because the update was applied to them all.
This is why I think my contention that it was the game mechanics that were being changed has much more relevance.

Secondly there is no evidence that any graphic update was implemented, there is only evidence that the Wild symbol from Reel 1 and Reel 2 was removed.

Thirdly there is no explanation what this graphic update actually was.

Fourthly (and this is the real Daddy) there is the contradictory nature of the statement that the Jackpot could not be won and that the payout was not affected! (Topgame themselves stated the Jackpot could not be won)

Even if we ignore that (which we wont) there is still the problem of how the game could function as if the symbol were there.
This would not be possible if it is a genuine slot where 5 reel stop positions are generated by the RNG.
Yes you could have the correct payout but the graphic representation on the reels would not match the payout.
In other words another symbol would represent the Wild symbol and all other symbols would almost certainly lose their identities too.
So the player would see a non winning line giving a payout and a winning line not paying out. This is a simple fact yet there is no evidence this was the case.
So to makes this clear try to answer this; (I am not having a go at you I am just trying to explain why the argument you are making is flawed)
Even if we say Topgame were mistaken and the Jackpot could still be won what would the winning combination of symbols have been?
If they are correct and the Jackpot could not be won (my understanding) how can payout not be affected?
When you think about that you will understand what I am getting at.

Hey Rusty,

Sorry, to clarify, I was speaking about the missing symbol in the fandango game, not in this issue concerning the jackpot. The graphics update I was talking about is related to that matter not this one. To be clearer - this jackpot issue has no relation to any graphics update! I'm sorry to cause confusion.

I still don't know what happened exactly with the jackpot wild symbols because no screen shot has still been shown to me. To be honest I don't have access to Thebes's records and I don't know what he got. Has the player who submitted the problem post it yet? Of course the max bet is not attractive and is being changed, I don't know who's idea it was, but we accede it was faulty. We are fixing it, and any problem we need to.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

[Rusty]

Hey Rusty,

Sorry, to clarify, I was speaking about the missing symbol in the fandango game, not in this issue concerning the jackpot. The graphics update I was talking about is related to that matter not this one. To be clearer - this jackpot issue has no relation to any graphics update! I'm sorry to cause confusion.

I still don't know what happened exactly with the jackpot wild symbols because no screen shot has still been shown to me. To be honest I don't have access to Thebes's records and I don't know what he got. Has the player who submitted the problem post it yet? Of course the max bet is not attractive and is being changed, I don't know who's idea it was, but we accede it was faulty. We are fixing it, and any problem we need to.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

Ah I see, a bit confusion with the crossover of threads because you were answering my questions which directly related to the missing Wild symbols in the Jackpot game.
We still have the same problem then because all I described is just as relevant to the Fandango missing symbol.

For clarity these are the issues.
The Jackpot total being removed before the game was taken out of circulation.
Missing Wild symbols rendering the Jackpot impossible to win.
Weeks before the game was withdrawn despite knowledge of the faults.
New missing symbol in Fandango game.
Rogue behaviour regarding implementation of T&C's. (possibly resolved)

The questions remain the same.

[Pinababy69]

I will let Pinababy deal with Jackpot removal as she was the one who brought that issue up.

I'm just going to make dinner, but will come back after to refresh my memory as to dates, posts, etc. and clarify the timeline as to when the Jackpot was removed from Dougie's Delights. But to my recollection, there is no discrepancy that it was removed prior to TopGame even acknowledging there were any technical problems or errors in the game.

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to Noah for his professionalism, and his willingness to tackle these questions. I appreciate it, and I know there are others here who do as well. And to Rusty, for explaining things in such a way (the technical part), that even I can understand and grasp the significance of.

[Pinababy69]

Okay, I've gone and quickly reread some of the posts in this thread:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...-software.html

Noah, if you haven't read the whole thing....I really think it would help you to maybe understand ALL the issues that Rusty and I are talking about. But as to the removal of the jackpot from Dougie's Delights, here are the relevant facts, as taken from posts in that thread.

A player named Eviecakes made this post on a forum called Casinoscamreport.com on May 26th. This was at Rome Casino btw. Link to original thread and post:

http://www.casinoscamreport.com/foru....php?f=6&t=696

I would just like voice a concern regarding my play Rome Casino. I have been playing there for a few weeks and did enjoy a couple of the slots like Dougiues Delights and Diablo 13. Dougiue had a rather large progressive of $192,000.00 that could only be won if the player got 5 wilds on a pay line, I played this game extensively and never once seen the wild symbol on reels 1 and 5, not even scroll by. Then one day the jackpot was gone so I concentrated on Diablo 13 as it currently has a jackpot of $145,000.00 running. Well, the game at first had wilds on all 5 reels consistently coming up at 3-4 many times making the payouts nice for the player, the bonus rounds which required at least 3 or more of the wizard to open was lousy, if you finally got it you may get $1 playing at 65 cents. Well then I logged on a few days ago to play Diablo 13 and they had changed the way the slot plays. The wilds had dissapeared from reels 1 and 5 and was rarely seen on 2, 3 and 4. But if you did get a five of a kind the payout was better than before but much harder to come by. The thing that really frustrated me was that the bonus rounds since the change now may or may not open. A few days ago when I was playing Diablo 13 I had gotten the 3 and 4 wizards 5 separate times playing max bets and not once did the bonus rounds open, which on the other few occasions when it did it was paying out better than the previous setting, but if it won't open, then the payer is being cheated out of bonus round winnings.

I wrote the casino an email voicing my concern which was not addressed. I played a $15 bonus they had put into my account yesterday and had moved on to the fruit slot that also had a progressive, but was totally irritated when the first bonus of getting 3 pineapples also did not open the bonus round.

Keep in mind, she had already written to Jonathan at TopGame at this time. The first reply she received was June 3rd (eight days after post), telling her a trouble report was being opened, and giving her a comp...but not mentioning any problem with gameplay. She again wrote to Jonathan, explaining the problem in more detail, and on June 10th (15 days after original post), she received this reply (as posted at CSR):

hi Eviecakes

Thanks for your positive response and for giving us another go - Congrats on your nice win!!!

on the technical side I promised an answer - We went game session by session to see if we had any technical or system breakdown and could not find anything accept that your internet system had time outs from time to time and this could be the only reason for your screens to not show properly - as for the game payouts, We guarantee market related and better payout in all our games. because as a new platform we need to stand our ground amongst some established names and that takes some doing. So rest assured that our games are Hot.

please contact me personally anytime you need anything at - Jonathan@topgame-online.com

best Regards and enjoy your winnings!!

Jonathan
Topgame

Finally, on June 16th, this issue was brought up at GPWA, and the APCW and the admin of Casinoscamreport, did some testing of their own on the games, and THEN it was finally admitted that there were problems.

I was under the assumption that the jackpot had been won, and asked Jonathan from TopGame about it. His reply:

3. firstly the progressive jackpot was removed from the game and not won.

It is pretty clear from the original post on CSR on May 26th, that the jackpot was gone at that time....yet according to TopGame, no technical errors plagued the games at that time. So what was their reason for removing the $192,000 jackpot sometime prior to May 26th, when the games weren't even pulled until mid June, and supposedly the game was functioning correctly (it wasn't, but according to TopGame, it was)?

I hate to add to your workload Noah...but I just took a gander over at the CSR forum to see if anything new had been added to the original thread and what do I see:

Posted by Eviecakes on August 7th (3 days ago) at CSR:

http://www.casinoscamreport.com/foru...11639&start=24

Seems things have gotten quiet on the Top Game/Rome issue, any news? I have played there a couple times to see if there has been any changes made. I am glad to say the symbols of the wilds on some of the games are on all reels and the pistols on Fandango has been put back. I played for the last couple days on a $49 deposit I made, no bonus with it. I was going up and down in the $15 range and decided last night to play Fandango, I was surprised that I hit 3 wilds and 2 pistols on a pay line, I was playing 75 cents and won $500, cashed out $450 as I have learned if I keep playing I lose it all back to the casino, no matter where I play.

Anyways, although it is nice to see some progress, what of the other issues? Such as the still missing jackpot on Dougies Delights, which by the way now has wilds back on all reels. The issue of the outrageous wagering requirements to win a jackpot and the wilds having no value unless a player is wagering his next hundred year wages? I forget what the rest of the issues are since things have died down.

It is now August 10th....where is the $192,000? Why hasn't it been put back? And why was it removed in the first place, referencing the above timeline?

Just goes to prove you should never assume anything, because I honestly believed that 192K would have been put back in place by now.....it's been going on three months. Where is the money? Don't mean to sound short, but I really wasn't expecting this. Thanks Noah.

[Rusty]

Wow!

I said 2 steps forward, 1 step back - make that 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
This platform has behaved like rogues full stop.
I feel sure Noah is genuine and I feel sorry for the good managers of other Topgame casinos but bottom line, their software supplier is lousy.

1) They remove a Jackpot without explanation.
2) They fiddle with the live Jackpot games.
3) They make the payout for 5 Wilds Zero unless max bet ($45/$65)
4) The Jackpot can only be won playing $45/$65 per spin
5) Then they make the Jackpot impossible to win.
6) They are told about the fault but fail to pull the game.
7) They then state they will pull the game but when checked they have not.
8) Finally they pull the game but other faults are reported such as bonus rounds not operating correctly.
9) They promise to reinstate the jackpot when the games go back live but 3 Months later the Jackpot has not been returned.
10) They state they are being tested by TST but 2 Months later we find they are still going to be tested by TST.
11) Another symbol goes missing from another slot.
12) All the time they are unresponsive to questions except one horrible appearance here which was a PR disaster.

I mean how rogue can you get?

[RomeCasino]

Okay, I've gone and quickly reread some of the posts in this thread:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...-software.html

Noah, if you haven't read the whole thing....I really think it would help you to maybe understand ALL the issues that Rusty and I are talking about. But as to the removal of the jackpot from Dougie's Delights, here are the relevant facts, as taken from posts in that thread.

A player named Eviecakes made this post on a forum called Casinoscamreport.com on May 26th. This was at Rome Casino btw. Link to original thread and post:

http://www.casinoscamreport.com/foru....php?f=6&t=696



Keep in mind, she had already written to Jonathan at TopGame at this time. The first reply she received was June 3rd (eight days after post), telling her a trouble report was being opened, and giving her a comp...but not mentioning any problem with gameplay. She again wrote to Jonathan, explaining the problem in more detail, and on June 10th (15 days after original post), she received this reply (as posted at CSR):



Finally, on June 16th, this issue was brought up at GPWA, and the APCW and the admin of Casinoscamreport, did some testing of their own on the games, and THEN it was finally admitted that there were problems.

I was under the assumption that the jackpot had been won, and asked Jonathan from TopGame about it. His reply:



It is pretty clear from the original post on CSR on May 26th, that the jackpot was gone at that time....yet according to TopGame, no technical errors plagued the games at that time. So what was their reason for removing the $192,000 jackpot sometime prior to May 26th, when the games weren't even pulled until mid June, and supposedly the game was functioning correctly (it wasn't, but according to TopGame, it was)?

I hate to add to your workload Noah...but I just took a gander over at the CSR forum to see if anything new had been added to the original thread and what do I see:

Posted by Eviecakes on August 7th (3 days ago) at CSR:

http://www.casinoscamreport.com/foru...11639&start=24



It is now August 10th....where is the $192,000? Why hasn't it been put back? And why was it removed in the first place, referencing the above timeline?

Just goes to prove you should never assume anything, because I honestly believed that 192K would have been put back in place by now.....it's been going on three months. Where is the money? Don't mean to sound short, but I really wasn't expecting this. Thanks Noah.

OK (deep breath),

Lets start discussing this, because even though I'm horrified at some of the mistakes, I don't think its as bad as you think.

First of all I ask that you acknowledge that we have been fixing the issues that have been raised, as is made clear by Eviecakes's post. The missing symbols have all been fixed, the games are in order. Things have been done.

So lets deal with things.

OK first a little time correction, the game dougie's delights has been removed in June, so it is not that the jackpot was removed for 3 months, the jackpot was gone (according to player, needs to be checked) at the end of May and the game was pulled mid june, so about 3 weeks (still horrible I'm just putting this in place) I believe it was pulled because of the jackpot problem but honestly I'm not sure why, it was done by a team that is no longer with us.

TopGame does NOT 'fool around' with jackpot games. Yes there were some pot smoking monkeys in the technical department a few months back and yes they made some really @#$ed up mistakes, which we are now paying for, like TopGame paid off the players who were affected by the first symbol missing problem, a large amount. The second did not affect any players, the game was removed immediately and fixed. So yes the game will be returned and the jackpot amount will be added back of course. About the 5 wilds and no win, I'm still waiting to see the screen shot so I can check everything out, the player says he has it so if he would please post it we can begin checking on that.

And Rusty I'm trying not to get insulted that you claim no answers from TopGame have been given except for those (idiotic) responses by Jonathan (gone now), what am I chopped liver? I have been in contact with them as much as possible in order to research answers for you. So they did respond through me. And thank you for the words about me, but I'm not the only genuine professional here, believe me. Unfortunately we are bogged down by technical mistakes made by a team that is no longer with us. We are cleaning after them and we are trying to deal with and answer all of these concerns. Yes I know its easy blaming people that aren't here anymore, but it isn't the first time I've said this, many people involved are gone now because of it.

Look, as Rome we could have disentangled ourselves from this software provider, easy. We could have even gone to RTG or any other software provider, we have the resources. But we stayed with TopGame for a reason and that is because they have some excellent ideas and excellent people, who got tied up with an ex-tech department that made a lot of issues, one of these is the 45/65 dollar thing which we are now changing as fast as possible and of course we don't expect you to play until we do. TopGame did not try to lie about this, they were actually the ones to tell you about this (Thebes rep). I know this all looks like machinations to you but these are mostly disorganized communications, which is why I'm trying to make them better. We're not giving up because mistakes were made by an ex-technical team, we deal with them and move on.

Regarding TST, I've explained before that it takes time to contact such an endeavor, its a complex and costly operation. If you have ever seen a process like this between companies, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. TopGame has been in negotiation with them for quite some time, more than two months even, and they have (finally) begun their contracted work. I hope you believe me when I say this. And yes the process itself will probably take at least another month, its a comprehensive examination and we have oh so many details to go over to make sure everything meets the standard.

I'd like to say that we are trying very hard to move forward and fix things but its not easy when every time there is even a T&C problem in a casino (like what happened in planet23) that happens to be TopGame, the attack is immediately against TopGame and all the issues they've ever had are brought up over and over again. Not that I'm blaming you, I understand your viewpoint and I just wish you could come over and see how it is here. I'm not trying to bury anything but imagine yourselves in our place - we are trying to improve everything, work things with TST, deal with issues left by an incompetent technical department, we've completely changed our CS department and its manager (yours truly), we've changed our tech department and its manager, we are coming into CM all the time to deal with things head on and we are trying to fix and deal with the issues you are telling us about, all the while you are telling us we are rogue. I'm sorry but we are not, we really are just a business trying to overcome some tech issues and move forward to be an excellent brand. I hope that after TST certifies us we will be at least given a little benefit of the doubt, because we care and no one here is calm about this.

Please continue with the questions, I'm here.

Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

[jetset]

Wow!

I said 2 steps forward, 1 step back - make that 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
This platform has behaved like rogues full stop.
I feel sure Noah is genuine and I feel sorry for the good managers of other Topgame casinos but bottom line, their software supplier is lousy.

1) They remove a Jackpot without explanation.
2) They fiddle with the live Jackpot games.
3) They make the payout for 5 Wilds Zero unless max bet ($45/$65)
4) The Jackpot can only be won playing $45/$65 per spin
5) Then they make the Jackpot impossible to win.
6) They are told about the fault but fail to pull the game.
7) They then state they will pull the game but when checked they have not.
8) Finally they pull the game but other faults are reported such as bonus rounds not operating correctly.
9) They promise to reinstate the jackpot when the games go back live but 3 Months later the Jackpot has not been returned.
10) They state they are being tested by TST but 2 Months later we find they are still going to be tested by TST.
11) Another symbol goes missing from another slot.
12) All the time they are unresponsive to questions except one horrible appearance here which was a PR disaster.

I mean how rogue can you get?

There are so many red flags here that it looks like a Commie May Day parade!

And what about that 192K Pinababy is asking about?

[Casinomeister]

There are so many red flags here that it looks like a Commie May Day parade!

Ditto on that one

It looks to me that the TopGame product was launched about two years before it was ready. It's a Beta version - it's not a fully tested bonafide gaming platform, and I'm surprised that it hasn't been dropped by some of these operators like a hot potato.

I know there are good operators who drank the koolaid that Topgaming passed around, but they should have known better. If there are dope smoking monkeys dealing with the back end - what do you expect? Why they didn't go for RTG is beyond me. Too expensive? C'mon, in this industry you get what you pay for. RTG has been tested by not only TST but by millions of active players for years.

With the amount of "errors" that are springing up, I would not recommend any casinos that use this platform to anyone until this software is fully audited. Like jetset stated - it's a commie Mayday parade.

[RomeCasino]

Ditto on that one

It looks to me that the TopGame product was launched about two years before it was ready. It's a Beta version - it's not a fully tested bonafide gaming platform, and I'm surprised that it hasn't been dropped by some of these operators like a hot potato.

I know there are good operators who drank the koolaid that Topgaming passed around, but they should have known better. If there are dope smoking monkeys dealing with the back end - what do you expect? Why they didn't go for RTG is beyond me. Too expensive? C'mon, in this industry you get what you pay for. RTG has been tested by not only TST but by millions of active players for years.

With the amount of "errors" that are springing up, I would not recommend any casinos that use this platform to anyone until this software is fully audited. Like jetset stated - it's a commie Mayday parade.

Hi,

I did not say moving to RTG was too expensive, I said we had the resources but we'd rather stay with TopGame, its a conscious choice and I remember a time not so long ago when RTG treated in quite a similar way. These many issues seem like more than they are, as they keep getting regurgitated. There were actually about 3 major problems, one was fixed and paid out back to the players, another was fixed and now we are discussing the third which happened months ago by a different tech team. And I did also mention that team is no longer in our service. Not to mention no actual screen shot was ever delivered posted. However I acknowledge that you want to wait until the TST certification is over, and I guess that is fair. We're not asking for recommendations, but please don't write off a whole line of casinos that are obviously trying to amend.

Cheers

Noah