Guess Who's Cashout Terms Include a 15X WR On All Deposits

[bernynhel]

...The classic case was Intertops who tried to do this openly, but in the end they were forced to close their old MG casino in favor of an RTG with no country restrictions. In other words, I don't believe it's anything to do with RTG "raising their standards", though I sincerely wish it was! KK

Then who's operating Intertops Green? Cuz I just logged in and found a $25 comp and it's still called Intertops and it's still MG. Oh. I see they're "relocating" on August 31. Nevermind!

[vinylweatherman]

First we had the cashable bonus. This was designed to trap your money to a WR by offering a carrot to the player (the cashable bonus).

Next came the phantom bonus. The difference here was that although a similar WR applied, you could no longer eat the carrot.

This is the next logical step. Why even bother to show a carrot to the player when you can whip out a big stick after the fact and STILL make them wager more, despite never being offered a carrot.

A WR of these magnitudes is bugger all to do with money laundering, it is about setting a -EV trap that even works on those players that avoid bonuses due to the restrictive terms they come with.

The next step would be to restrict the amount that can be deposited in one go, BAN further deposits until the balance is zero, and retain the WR on deposits without bonuses. The final piece of this new & improved rip-off would be to make the MINIMUM withdrawal greater than the MAXIMUM allowed deposit.
Players would not only have to wager an unbonused deposit, say, 15x - they would have to WIN a multiple of their initial deposit in order to keep the winnings, or even get their deposit back.

Casinos that impose WR on deposits without bonuses are going to be MORE likely to receive a "chargeback" from a player who has deposited, NOT claimed any bonus, won a little, and expects to be able to keep these winnings, and who sees this as merely a rule made up to ensure winnings can never be withdrawn. The player's case for a chargeback would be simple, they played with REAL money with little chance of receiving the winnings because the high WR would make it a mathematical improbability.

Most gaming jurisdictions would not be too keen on permitting an operator that FORCED a player to continue gambling with an initial bankroll that was 100% their own money to the extent that they were very likely to lose everything.

If casinos are so worried about exposure to fraud, WHY do some positively encourage such large initial deposits from NEW players in the first place.
Offering a bonus that maxes out only on a deposit of, say, $20000, is going to create huge exposure to fraud if it was easy for the player to get their $20000 back. Perhaps these casinos that offer bonuses for such large deposits never really intend the players to see their money again (through onerous terms and conditions), so that even if it was fraudulently deposited, the worst that happens is that they have to give back what the player lost.

[GGW Laurie]

I cant understand any type of W/R on a fresh (no bonus) deposit at best, just plain stupid imo.............laurie

[bernynhel]

I cant understand any type of W/R on a fresh (no bonus) deposit at best, just plain stupid imo.............laurie

And since I had only mentioned it in the thread starter and no one has as yet commented, I'm posting to remind everyone that in addition to the 15 WR on all fresh deposits (thanks VWM) (or 40 WR, depending on who is working in support that day) Live Chat had also informed me that Saturn Bingo cashouts may only be submitted on Mondays between 12:00 AM and 11:59 PM!!!

[joyceflorida]

the two casinos i know of from the saturn operation is orchid and oneclub. Why aren't these casinos rogued? They are listed on this site as "proceed with caution".

[skiny]

Sun Palace bonus terms.

To withdraw your bonus, winnings, and deposit amount you will need to wager 40 times your deposit plus bonus.

IMPORTANT: Wagers in any form of Blackjack or Video Poker will change your bonus cash out requirements from 40 times to 100 times your deposit plus 100 times the bonus. Wagers in Craps, Caribbean Hold'em and any form of Baccarat, Roulette, Tri Card Poker, "21" Games , Pontoon, Vegas Three Card Rummy or Sic Bo cannot be applied to these wagering requirements.

Special note for customers outside of the US and Canada:

Due to a higher incidence of fraud and bonus abuse, management reserves the right to double the wagering requirements for customers located outside of the US and Canada.

So if you live outside of Canada or the US it's 80X even if all you play is slots. 200X if you play video poker.

Now here's the thing about this "bonus abuse" excuse.

It's really not that difficult for a casino to check your deposit, withdrawal and play history upon submitting a withdrawal. If the casino feels you're abusing a bonus whether that means taking them too often, taking them with different accounts or smacking them around a bit before you start wagering, I'm sure the casino could figure out easily enough who the culprits are and void the withdrawal. Forcing regular players to play 30 thousand hands of video poker or 10 thousand spins on slot games to cash out on a 20 dollar deposit will not stop fraudulent players from trying to steal money from the casino. It's just an excuse to make it nearly impossible for players like you and I to cash out if we decide to use a bonus.

Charging me 85 dollars for a cup of coffee is not going to stop people from trying to steal the napkins.

[nisosbar]

1x WR on deposits isn't unreasonable in light of the frauds that go on (once again we all suffer because of the idiots), but anything more is taking the p*ss. That's rogue-worthy practice. Plainly unethical, ridiculous and deceitful IMO.

I completely disagree. Once you impose a 1x or even a .25x WR on non-bonused deposits, you have set a precedent, and from there, it just take off.

These terms are like something out of Monty Python. Fitting that it's based in the UK.

[Mavin1]

Evidently it was just a matter of time before this started happening. Obviously they have been studying the practices of credit card companies and seeing how much they are making on interest charges for using a credit card. So the best way for them to mimic this and get near the same result, is charge a player interest on the players money. The 5x to 40x playthrough on your own money is interest penalties. So just like credit card companies being nothing more than legal thieves, some casinos are obviously jumping on the band wagon as well to once again, stick it to the consumer .

Let's see how long it takes them to start charging payment processing time as well.

[Mouche12]

That would be great in the best and most professional of worlds but unfortunately I don't think providers do too much policing of their licensees and their T&Cs.

That applies particularly to RTG judging by the regular hassles that come to light on these pages.

It usually has to be a pretty bad - or very public - issue for the software providers to get involved, and they would appear content to simply continue hauling in their royalties and fees rather than indulging in time-consuming patrols of their licensees' T&Cs and/or player complaint portals.

They could, of course, at least watch T&C change watchdog portals like KWblue's and the PABs here to keep a regular finger on the pulse.

That said, there are a few providers who will take action if specific issues are brought directly to their attention.

Gambling IMO should be fully regulated on an international level; USA gambling should be allowed and the legislation to this extent should also cover world-wide supervision of all software operators, casinos, poker rooms and sportsbooks. We are very happy to have CM, but in order to stop the rogues and terms & conditions like this, this would be the best solution.

[bernynhel]

the two casinos i know of from the saturn operation is orchid and oneclub. Why aren't these casinos rogued? They are listed on this site as "proceed with caution".

I never heard of either of them but did some checking: Orchid and Oneclub are each listed at CasinoCity.com but no owner is displayed whereby Saturn Bingo does show Saturn Gaming Limited as the owner. I asked CasinoCity why Orchid's and OneClub's owners weren't displayed and could any online casino get a listing there anonymously but only 5 minutes ago so haven't heard back. However, the following are included, ver batim, in all three sites T/Cs so I assume they are more than just loosely affiliated:

Banking
All financial transactions are processed by Saturn Gaming Limited, c/o 2020 Chartered Accountants, 1 St. Andrew's Hill, EC4V5BY London, United Kingdom, owner of this website, and the charge will appear on your statement as SATURNBINGO.COM, LONDON, UK.


IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING DEPOSITS & WITHDRAWALS

Please expect withdrawals to take up to 2 weeks to fully process. It is very important to us that we meet or exceed your expectations. For this reason we need you to understand ahead of time that regulatory changes in the market place and new banking regulations have limited the availability of deposit and withdrawal methods and have increased the time required to process withdrawals.

We value your business and will do everything we can to offer as many deposit and withdrawal options as possible and to keep the time it takes to process withdrawals to a minimum. Please expect withdrawals to take approximately 2 weeks to process.


Also take note that any player that deposits and requests a withdrawal without having wagered AT LEAST 15 times the amount deposited will have their withdrawal declined.

That these terms, ridiculous as they are, are stated so clearly in the T/Cs it would make demoting these sites to rogue status simply for dictating these terms awkward, at best.