A game I invented

[superuseless]

I wanted to ask about your opinion about a game I invented:

The game is a jackpot roulette. It uses the same wheel as American Roulette and pays 35 to 1. Of every bet, 2.5% is the jackpot contribution, of which a fifth goes to the next jackpot. The payout percentage is 97.24%. Along with the normal betting chips, the player is able to place a golden and silver chips, or use a Lucky Dip option that will place them randomly. For every bet, the player has to place the golden chip. He can place and as many silvers as pounds he has bet and save some for the next spin. All silver chips have to be placed on different numbers. If the ball lands on the number with the golden chip on it, the jackpot feature begins. The wheel spins again and if the ball lands on a number with a silver chip on it the jackpot is won. If the player has normal chips on the number with the golden chip he gets the normal winnings as well as the jackpot.

So, what do you think? Would you play it? Do you think others would? Does it have a chance of being accepted? If not, why not?

[aka23]

I wanted to ask about your opinion about a game I invented:

The game is a jackpot roulette. It uses the same wheel as American Roulette and pays 36 to 1. Of every bet, 2.5% is the jackpot contribution, of which a fifth goes to the next jackpot. The payout percentage is 97.24%. Along with the normal betting chips, the player is able to place a golden and silver chips, or use a Lucky Dip option that will place them randomly. For every bet, the player has to place the golden chip. He can place and as many silvers as pounds he has bet and save some for the next spin. All silver chips have to be placed on different numbers. If the ball lands on the number with the golden chip on it, the jackpot feature begins. The wheel spins again and if the ball lands on a number with a silver chip on it the jackpot is won. If the player has normal chips on the number with the golden chip he gets the normal winnings as well as the jackpot.

So, what do you think? Would you play it? Do you think others would? Does it have a chance of being accepted? If not, why not?

What if someone wants to bet on red/black, rather than a number? Does he place the silver chip on red? And if so, are the odds of winning the jackpot still chance of winning gold chip * chance of winning silver chip, or does he forfeit the chance to win jackpot since the silver was not a number?

[KasinoKing]

Ah, I see you have changed from a unique 52 number wheel in the first plan you posted on another forum 2 days ago:-

I wanted to ask about your opinion about a game I invented:

The game is a jackpot roulette. The roulette wheel has 52 numbers - 00 and from 0 to 50. Betting on a number pays 47 to 1. Of every bet, 4% is the jackpot contribution. The payout percentage is 96.3%. Along with the normal betting chips, the player will be able to place golden and silver chips, or use a Lucky Dip option that would place them randomly. For every bet, the player can place two golden chips and as many silvers as pounds he has bet. He can also save silver chips for the next spin, but will have to place the two golden chips every time. If the ball lands on a number with a golden chip on it, the jackpot feature begins. The wheel spins again and if the ball lands on a number with a silver chip on it the jackpot is won. If both golden chips are placed on the same number, the player will be able to place twice as many silver chips, all silver chips have to be placed on different numbers.

So, what do you think? Does it have a chance of being accepted? If not, why not?

To which I replied:

Your game sounds good, but seems to be fundamentally flawed.
First off, you didn't say if this is for a real roulette wheel, or a virtual one - but due to the complexities, I assume virtual.
You also didn't say if the player has to pay for the gold chips, and if so how much?
If they are paid for, does the player get a 'normal win' + the bonus when the gold is landed on?
Also is it a multiplayer, or single player game?

The main flaw though is this; one or many players play the game until the jackpot gets reasonably large (say over £150), then a player can start covering every number on the wheel with Silver Chips + the 2 golds somewhere & just keep spinning until they hit the jackpot.
(If they put £1 on every number, they lose £1.92 every spin (assuming they get the jackpot eventually) which would give them over 100 spins to break-even or make profit by hitting a gold chip with a 1 in 26 chance)

Another problem is what happens after the jackpot is won?
If it resets & starts again from £0, what is the incentive to start playing a game with a 7.69% house edge?

I agree with the poster above as well, why have a special wheel with 52 numbers?
I'm sure it is possible to come up with a jackpot game using a standard American 38 number wheel.
In fact, several jackpot roulettes like this already exist; Microgaming have Roulette Royal, and WagerWorks have 2; Double Bonus Spin Roulette & Hot Streak Roulette. (Details on my site).

Keep going though - I think you are on the right track to produce a new game.
How you get a software house to accept it though could be your biggest problem.

KK

It seems some of my questions are still un-answered...

KK

[superuseless]

You have to place the golden chip on a number. You can place your normal chips anywhere. If you place a silver chip on red, that will cost you 18 silver chips. If you place a silver chip on red and even, that will cost you 27 silver chips. The probability of winning the jackpot is the probability that the ball lands on the golden chip multiplied by the probability that on the feature spin the ball lands on a silver chip (if it lands on red and you have a silver chip on red, that counts).

[superuseless]

Kasino King, I posted a reply on the other forum. I think you were right about the size of the roulette. Here is my reply:

"The game could be modified for live play, but I don't think people would play it when the jackpot is small and people wouldn't be able to use the Lucky Dip feature to place the silver chips randomly. The Microsoft Surface could be used in casinos to play it, especially multiplayer.

The main idea is that people often play jackpot games at insignificantly small jackpots (the house edge without the jackpot would be 92.3 %, but they would still play it), so there would always be someone who builds them and then people like me (who hate losing) would come and take the jackpot. If this game is in the bookies I would help them make 50£ in less than 20 minutes. For online casinos the silver chips would be harder to earn, say one silver chip for every 10£ wagered.

I made the game with 4 lines of 12 numbers with 2 numbers on each side, so that the jackpot contribution is higher, but of course it can be done with an American Roulette wheel - the jackpot contribution would be 2.5 %.

The golden chips cost nothing. You get two (perhaps one if a 38 number wheel is used) for every spin and you have to place them, you can't accumulate them.

What makes the game special is that it is a progressive jackpot roulette (unlike Double Bonus Spin Roulette & Hot Streak Roulette) and it doesn't take 1.8 Million spins (unlike Roulette Royal).

Any criticism would be highly appreciated! So what do you think?"

Note: The reply is for the 52 number version.

[vinylweatherman]

Michael Shackleford AKA the Wizard of Odds is well into this sort of thing. Not only does he invent new casino games both for online and B & M, but his site offers tools and advice to those wanting to try it themselves.

You will have to not only design a game that players will perceive as novel, and play, but one that has been rigorously tested mathematically to ensure that the casinos could not be taken by any "advantage" methods on the game, such as it getting into a state where a mathematical player could enter the game, and guarantee to come out ahead by playing for "jackpot or bust".

Ideally, it should use a standard Roulette wheel. Asking casinos not only to accept a new game, but source a bespoke piece of kit (52 number wheel, or software emulation of one), is asking for short term failure, and a much lower chance even of longer term success.

There is no reason the game needs to offer all the outer bets, such as odds & evens, if this only serves to complicate the game.

Making the game TOO complicated is likely to deter players from trying it out, a bit like Craps - fine if you know it, but if you don't it's deceptively complicated.

For the bookies, they would probably prefer it designed as a slot, or a plug-in for the current Roulette terminals. There would have to be an upper limit for the jackpot for licensing reasons, which might be a complication if it is progressive, yet 100% random.

[KasinoKing]

Kasino King, I posted a reply on the other forum. I think you were right about the size of the roulette. Here is my reply:

You still haven't tackled the problem of once the "Jackpot pool" reaches a certain level (a VERY modest 150+) the game becomes VERY +EV for the player covering ALL the numbers with his silver chips...

There are two very simple ways to modify the game to overcome this problem, but I'm not going to tell you them (yet) - you're the one who is supposed to be designing this game!

[superuseless]

Kasino King: I don't understand what is the problem of the game becoming too much +EV? I think that's the point of making progressive jackpots. Both the players and the casino/bookies win. I make a living from +EV without cheating.

vinylweatherman: I sent an email to the Wizard (ask the Wizard), I hope he replies. I am not even considering offering the game to live casinos. It is possible, but definitely after some bookies/online casinos accept it. I think, you are right about the size of the roulette wheel and 38 numbers seem fine. I don't think it is complicated, at all. In UK bookies the maximum payout is 500£, so the player can only put 13£ on a number without a golden chip and less on the number with the golden chip, so that the payout is not above 500£.

[vinylweatherman]

Kasino King: I don't understand what is the problem of the game becoming too much +EV? I think that's the point of making progressive jackpots. Both the players and the casino/bookies win. I make a living from +EV without cheating.

vinylweatherman: I sent an email to the Wizard (ask the Wizard), I hope he replies. I am not even considering offering the game to live casinos. It is possible, but definitely after some bookies/online casinos accept it. I think, you are right about the size of the roulette wheel and 38 numbers seem fine. I don't think it is complicated, at all. In UK bookies the maximum payout is 500£, so the player can only put 13£ on a number without a golden chip and less on the number with the golden chip, so that the payout is not above 500£.

This £500 is the problem, but take a look at how Fruit Machines have handled their pseudo-progressives. They have the main pot, and a reserve pot, which can be filled with contributions if the main pot hits the limit. Older machines were not random anyway.

The problem with a game that presents a +EV position at times is that it will be swamped by the "pro" players at these times, and the "munters" who are meant to fill it up will soon get fed up with the poor payouts, and the fact that they see the "same faces" continually winning.

The Fruit Machine "Pie Factory" had a very simple exploit like this, except the "pot" was invisible, but players "in the know" could tell with as little as £1 when they could guarantee £50-£75 out of the streak. Pretty soon, everybody was in on this, and no-one played the game outside of it's +EV range, so it pretty much never got played at all, and was removed (or "chipped") at many sites. Any game that clearly has a -EV and +EV state will suffer similar problems, and I doubt many sites would want such a game, since they are long term investments.

[superuseless]

Isn't that the same with all progressive jackpot games? One simple solution of the problem is to make the jackpot personal, which would work online, but probably not in the bookies. However, I think that if players don't want to play a certain game, they can choose another one. I think players often choose variety instead of better odds, for the same reason that they choose to gamble in the first place.

I have to say, however, that the chance the jackpot becomes +EV is only 11.8%. That's when the probability that the jackpot becomes 76£ which is how much the player will lose on average to get it. So most of the time it will be won by regular players. I'd say that less than 5% of the jackpots will be won by professionals.