Rival Slots and bonuses

[RobWin]

No i dont believe the games are "rigged" as this would suggest that they are somehow dishonest, but i do believe that the games are Regulated ( or controlled) in some way , they have to be in order for the casino to profit in the long term by having an edge of about (normally) 5% . and because online its all virtual then i think that to "regulate" or change the house edge on not only specific games but also on individual players is just a matter of tapping a few keys ... and yes all the games of certain groups (MG, crypto, playt etc ) are run of the same servers , but i cannot see how this in some way proves that the games all run the same for each casino .... the servers are run by the software supplier who services the casino , but just like any other service industry they will tailor the software to the needs or request of the client , and the casino will request the software or games to play according to the individual player or time of month (bonus time etc etc.) so as to make the maximum profit while still trying to produce an acceptable return to the player.
so ..Random !! definitly not ,
rigged!! wrong word,
controlled ...yes ....as tightly as a little mousy's A**hole.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here....In order for that theory to work the casino would have to be in contact several times a day with the software manufacturer to give them the list of player names and set payout ratios for these particular players depending on how often the casino wanted to "control" that players outcome. The software manufacturer would then have to re-tweak that particular players win/loss ratios and then serve them back up and they would be able to do this on a daily or weekly basis for thousands of players at 17 different Rival Casinos ??

[bryand]

It seems we have 4 or 5 threads going at once that relate to Rival payout percentage and/or bonuses. As has been assumed for many months and recently confirmed by the rep for Simon Says in one of the other threads, all Rival powered sites reside on the same cluster of servers and all share the same RNG. Hence payout percentages are equal for each skin.

I also agree with Rob that bonuses have no effect on payout percentages. Each casino operator controls payouts for match deposits by setting the WR for promotions.

[hobobiker]

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here....In order for that theory to work the casino would have to be in contact several times a day with the software manufacturer to give them the list of player names and set payout ratios for these particular players depending on how often the casino wanted to "control" that players outcome. The software manufacturer would then have to re-tweak that particular players win/loss ratios and then serve them back up and they would be able to do this on a daily or weekly basis for thousands of players at 17 different Rival Casinos ??

Er no ... i am not saying that ......why would the casino have to contact the software people several times a day with thousands of peoples play details ???? .... thats what the computers are for , they compute things very very quickly ..... things like win/lose ratios and they comminicate with each other ..... to share information like a players balance ....wins...losses...etc .
when you withdraw money from a cashline or hole in the wall, is there someone in the bank sat behind the wall making notes on who withdrew what ... then several times a day they ring head office to adjust the balance of those hundreds of people who withdrew money ... at the same time deciding who gets charged for going overdrawn ... charges etc etc , or how much interest is charged etc..... well believe it or not there aint no little guy with a notepad behind the wall..... because the computer software works it out and the computers talk to each other in a funny language ... like beep beeep booop beep beeeep boooo beeep.
or maybe the casinos are different and there is someone sat there watching ...and when you bet a fiver they ring the software people and tell them to deduct it off your balance .... but if this is true ... they are really really quick at writing ... maybe they use shorthand.

[KasinoKing]

is there a method or reason behind the figures? ie: deposit 50 at one and withdraw 150 but deposit no more , deposit over and again at another to cash out zero. and then deposit 400 at another ...win jack ...but carry on to deposit another 200? only to win 2500 ....?

and do you find that the best returns come from the casinos that offer the best commission or bonus to their affiliates ?

Part 1; No, there is no 'system' to my deposits - I just deposit when I see a fairly decent bonus which does not have crazy WR.

Part 2; That sounds like a loaded question! No - I've been playing online for 8 years & and affiliate for not quite 3 years - I have not noticed anything different at any casinos.

No i dont believe the games are "rigged" as this would suggest that they are somehow dishonest, but i do believe that the games are Regulated ( or controlled) in some way , they have to be in order for the casino to profit in the long term by having an edge of about (normally) 5%.

That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

In my opinion that is a totally bizarre concept. Can you accept the a real physical roulette wheel is not rigged, but still makes 2.7027% profit overall due to the mathematics? If you can accept that, then try to imagine a slot is a giant roulette wheel - it does not have to cheat to win, the mathematics gives it it's long-term house edge, even with totally random spins.
If you can't accept that then maybe you shouldn't play at all online, because if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

[hobobiker]

That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

most people on this site have probably been gambling for a few years and in that time had good wins and bad losses at online and land, and i can say for myself that "long term" i dont win .... i can remember the good wins ... but there are a lot of losses which are better forgotten, and im pretty sure ( could be wrong) that most people on this forum if honest have like myself not made a profit over the years and have spent or lost more than they would like to admit to others or even themselves ..... and your right in saying that maybe i should not gamble online if i believe they are (which i do), but i will continue in the hope that one day i will be like yourself lucky enough to make a profit at this pastime,.

on another note , how do you find the time in between your daytime job, to play so many plays , log and put on a database each/every result , and maintain and update a pretty busy website and play golf. . . ? are you human?

[Rusty]

Part 1; No, there is no 'system' to my deposits - I just deposit when I see a fairly decent bonus which does not have crazy WR.

Part 2; That sounds like a loaded question! No - I've been playing online for 8 years & and affiliate for not quite 3 years - I have not noticed anything different at any casinos.


That's not a unique, but for me it's a very strange opinion; Basically you are saying you think casinos operate like UK fruit machines - random up to a point, but programmed to give wins or dry spells to achieve the final house edge?
To me, controlled = rigged = dishonest.

In my opinion that is a totally bizarre concept. Can you accept the a real physical roulette wheel is not rigged, but still makes 2.7027% profit overall due to the mathematics? If you can accept that, then try to imagine a slot is a giant roulette wheel - it does not have to cheat to win, the mathematics gives it it's long-term house edge, even with totally random spins.
If you can't accept that then maybe you shouldn't play at all online, because if all the casinos are 'controlled' then none of us could win long term, could we?

KK

That is a fair point KK about genuine house edge and it is often used as a counter argument to the "adjusted payout theory"

If we go with your argument we have to believe that a combination or all of the following are true;

1) The Casino is run by honest and ethical people (lack of proper regulation)

2) The Casinos prefer software that they have no control over, rather than being able to adjust payouts to suit their own needs. (Surely there is a software operator that allows Casinos to adjust payout on their slots?)

3) The Casinos are not greedy and would turn down the chance to make an extra few hundred Thousand pounds even if the opportunity existed. (Adjusting to a lower payout even for short periods can make a big impact and is undetectable and unprovable)

4) Casinos self audits and payout claims are genuine (assuming they even give any)

You can make your own arguments as to what needs to be true for the "Adjusted payout theory" to be correct.

There is of course a very easy way to settle this argument Once and for all and that would be for Rival (and any other software supplier) to supply the true odds of winning combinations on their slots.
It would then be very simple to check for, what is referred to in the industry as, Raking periods, "Where a machine deliberately forces a series of losing games by use of any compensation or other controller mechanism." or Enriched periods,"Where the machine deliberately forces winning outcomes over a series of games by use of any compensation or other controller mechanism." (quoted from the UK Gambling Commission site) Any of those seem familiar to your online slot play experience?

The obscure reply I get from Casinos and software suppliers alike when requesting this information is that they won't give this it because they do not want their rivals (no pun intended) to know how their slots work.
Now hang on, I thought they were random and payout was based purely on probability and paytables, the gameplay mechanic is surely self evident. Smoking gun?
I have even shown in past posts how the paytable and probability of outcome are apparently not linked which is very strong evidence to suggest that payout is calculated by other means.

Ultimately if you want to play online, 'you pays your money and takes your chance', but that does not mean punters are not entitled to all the relevant information and probability of outcome along with many other safeguards that would be supplied in a properly regulated industry.

To be fair to the industry and those who do want to stamp out some of the more odorous practises and operations the Online world of gambling and Casinos is not half as bad as it might be due to their efforts.
There are some relatively good Casinos out there but a lot more transparency and honesty on how the games, especially slots, actually operate would be most welcome.

Here is a link to the UK Gambling Commission Machine standards regulations which contains some interesting reading.

http://http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/UploadDocs/publications/Document/Machine%20Standards%20A%20&%20B1.pdf

[bryand]

There is of course a very easy way to settle this argument Once and for all and that would be for Rival (and any other software supplier) to supply the true odds of winning combinations on their slots.

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Just think about it - how can an online casino give a 10% loyalty bonus (and in some cases an additional 10% cashback bonus on losses) plus match bonuses plus freebies and actually pay out 95% of deposits? The numbers do not add up.

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Don't they publish those numbers (95%-98% or so) based on individual games such as slots and video poker for example. Then how bonuses and such would apply ??

[KasinoKing]

on another note , how do you find the time in between your daytime job, to play so many plays , log and put on a database each/every result , and maintain and update a pretty busy website and play golf. . . ? are you human?

No, I'm with Vortran!

The real answer is I have a very tolerant wife & spend every spare minute of every day in front of a computer! Also, if you look at my monthly results log you will see I only play 3-6 casinos per month, which is not a lot really if I'm averaging about 2hrs play every day. I compile my play logs as I go along - it's how I keep an exact track on how much WR I've completed.

I totally believe online operators' assertion that payout percentages are in the 95% - 98% range. The key is to define 'payout percentage'. I believe it includes loyalty bonuses, freebies, match bonuses, software licensing fees (essentially all casino costs sans profit). Hence the true cashout percentage is somewhere between 50% and 60% IMO.

Just think about it - how can an online casino give a 10% loyalty bonus (and in some cases an additional 10% cashback bonus on losses) plus match bonuses plus freebies and actually pay out 95% of deposits? The numbers do not add up.

No one said casinos pay out 95% of deposits did they?

You deposit $100 and play $1 spins on a 95% slot, on average:-
After 100 spins you have $95 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $90 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $85 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $80 left,
After the next 100 spins you have $75 left,
etc, etc, until your bank is zero.
The return of the slot is still 95%, even though you got a 0% return on your deposit.

KK

[bryand]

@KK - you're actually helping to make my point which is to dispell the notion that 95% payout percentage means 95% cashout percentage. I've had the debate here before that theoretically all players could play until bust and casino's cashout percentage would be ZERO. Yet I remember Enzo posting several months ago that the house edge is fixed, like rakeback in poker. That is a casino's annual profit necessarily equals house edge times total deposits less expenses. I'll try to dig up the old thread about house edge.