Playtech inquiry

[marino]

Among the services that Playtech offers to its customers casinos, appears in particular:

"Advanced bonus system allowing easy set up of both simple and complex automated bonuses as well as automatic calculation of bonus play-through requirements"

When a Playtech casino – Europacasino - has cancelled your winings under pretext that you did not respect the "wagering requirements". Is it acceptable that Playtech refuses to communicate a statement of your account and your plays, so that you can control the assertions of the casino?

[KasinoKing]

Will you please stop going on and on and on about this - I'm getting fed up with it now.
You have made just 6 posts here - all about the same thing. You also posted the same on other forums.
I gave you some advice and tried to help you and you seem to have totally ignored it.

Have you Pitched a Bitch yet?
(It's painless, free and should be able to resolve your problem)

If not, why not?
Put up or shut up!
KK

[vinylweatherman]

Will you please stop going on and on and on about this - I'm getting fed up with it now.
You have made just 6 posts here - all about the same thing. You also posted the same on other forums.
I gave you some advice and tried to help you and you seem to have totally ignored it.

Have you Pitched a Bitch yet?
(It's painless, free and should be able to resolve your problem)

If not, why not?
Put up or shut up!
KK

PAB is the only way to put pressure on them, they will not care about a few random postings like this cropping up. PAB could produce a ruling. They are not in the CM Rogue pit. I believe though, this group are an "informal" rogue, through regularly seeming to shaft players, but with no concrete evidence having been put through the PAB process. They pay many players, but will screw others on rather vague & subjective grounds - these grounds nearly always being "bonus abuse".

Further posts by the OP will fail to make headway, as we can accept that failure to provide playthrough data is not acceptable (if they have nothing to hide, there is no reason for such refusal).
My suspicion is that you DID meet playthrough, but they have decided to pull the "F U Clause", but hide this with the pretext of not having met WR. They may believe you met WR through what they deem as "bonus abuse", and will not budge till someone with more clout starts asking questions, hence the advice to you to submit a PAB.
You could always complain to Playtech, but they tend to either not respond, or take a very long time, measured in weeks rather than days. Playtech have more recently said this has improved.

I am myself wary of Playtech casinos, and I consider them on a par with RTG with respect to risk of non payment of winnings. There are a few accredited Playtech casinos here, and these at least should be safer to play at. They may offer worse bonuses, but this is because they are more realistic, and they don't need to rely on F U Clauses because they have offered too-good-to-be-true bonuses to players.
These Playtech casinos have spammed me with offers of near on £1000 worth of bonuses on my first deposits - this puts them well up into the "too good too be true" category, as does the fact they use spam to market these offers.

[marino]

Will you please stop going on and on and on about this - I'm getting fed up with it now.
You have made just 6 posts here - all about the same thing. You also posted the same on other forums.
I gave you some advice and tried to help you and you seem to have totally ignored it.

Have you Pitched a Bitch yet?
(It's painless, free and should be able to resolve your problem)
"
If not, why not?
Put up or shut up!
KK

1) I am sorry to annoy you with my posts.

2) If you do not believe that they fiddled my account:http://rapidshare.com/files/19522965...du_14.doc.html

3) Playtech answered to my request:

"We have contacted Europa Casino regarding your concern.
Europa Casino has advised that your history may be made available to you upon your request.
As you have a long standing history with them, it will take some time to gather this information."

Europacasino's reply:

"J'ai bien recu votre demande et vous informe que je ne peux vous faire
parvenir l'historique des jeux."

4) I have posted a PAB. They refused because I had used my "one free shot" (against Cotedazurcasino.)

"I'm afraid my decision stands: I can't run keep running PABs on
non-Accredited casinos."
.....
"If you'd like to inform other players of your problem with the casino
then I strongly suggest you post on the message boards. That's what
they are there for."

5) I have followed your advice - in "thegamblersunderground" - and answered tour questions about my several posts.

[KasinoKing]

4) I have posted a PAB. They refused because I had used my "one free shot" (against Cotedazurcasino.)

"I'm afraid my decision stands: I can't run keep running PABs on
non-Accredited casinos."
.....

Sorry - I must have missed that bit.

In one of your previous messages you gave me the impression you had not completed the WR...
But you haven't really told us anything solid yet - What details do you have?
If you have a copy of the T&C's that were in place when you took the bonus, please post them.
Can you tell us exactly which games you played during WR, and roughly how much you wagered on each?
Did you play any large 'double up' bets?

With this info we might be able to find out what happened & suggest a soulution...

KK

[marino]

Sorry - I must have missed that bit.

In one of your previous messages you gave me the impression you had not completed the WR...
But you haven't really told us anything solid yet - What details do you have?
If you have a copy of the T&C's that were in place when you took the bonus, please post them.
Can you tell us exactly which games you played during WR, and roughly how much you wagered on each?
Did you play any large 'double up' bets?

With this info we might be able to find out what happened & suggest a soulution...

KK

To answer your question, I doubtless played exclusively on videopoker, but, in the general terms of their T&C they write:
1) “The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS”.

2) “We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games.”

From the first paragraph, I understand that, at the beginning, your account is the sum of your purchase - the cash - and the bonus offered (?) by the casino. As long as the cash isn’t spent, you do not wager the play bonus.

From the second paragraph, I understand that the “wagering requirement” applies only if you have lost your cash and resulting winings and wagered the play bonus.

( The same rules apply on microgaming casinos, but there, it appears clearly which part of your account belongs to you – your cash and the corresponding winings – and which part is made by bonus and submitted to "wagering requirements". When the cash is over, you start automatically using bonus; the cash account is fed as you satisfy WR)

In my case - I hope my memory doesn't deceive me - my wining period was performed when using my cash. So that I am not subject to WR.

This is the reason why I ask for my account and gaming history. I need this document to prove that the casino defrauded me. (As Vinylweatherman noticed, I wonder why it is so difficult to get it)

[KasinoKing]

In my case - I hope my memory doesn't deceive me - my wining period was performed when using my cash. So that I am not subject to WR.

That's it - I remember it all now.
You are totally not understanding how bonuses work.
I fully explained this in my reply to your PM at GU and in your Poll thread here:- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...9091-poll.html

In case you somehow missed it, I will repeat:-

I'm sorry, but I think the problem is you don't understand how 99% of casino bonuses work;

Once a bonus is added to your account (whether you asked for it or not) you are 100% committed to completing the WR in accordance with all their terms & restrictions before you can withdraw your money.
This is the only way the casinos can stop players taking a bonus, placing only a few bets, or low-risk bets and then walking away with THEIR money (the bonus).

Now the way they word the condition about using your money first can be a little bit confusing, but it's just to convey that you can't take say a 100% bonus, play until you have lost half your bankroll, and then just withdraw all your deposit. If you did that you would be getting a totally risk free chance to win from the casino, but the casino would have no chance to win from you. Not fair on them, is it?

Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR. This is 100% fair in my honest opinion.

I hope I have understood your complaint correctly, if not I apologise & ask that you explain further...

KK

[vinylweatherman]

That's it - I remember it all now.
You are totally not understanding how bonuses work.
I fully explained this in my reply to your PM at GU and in your Poll thread here:- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...9091-poll.html

In case you somehow missed it, I will repeat:-

I'm sorry, but I think the problem is you don't understand how 99% of casino bonuses work;

Once a bonus is added to your account (whether you asked for it or not) you are 100% committed to completing the WR in accordance with all their terms & restrictions before you can withdraw your money.
This is the only way the casinos can stop players taking a bonus, placing only a few bets, or low-risk bets and then walking away with THEIR money (the bonus).

Now the way they word the condition about using your money first can be a little bit confusing, but it's just to convey that you can't take say a 100% bonus, play until you have lost half your bankroll, and then just withdraw all your deposit. If you did that you would be getting a totally risk free chance to win from the casino, but the casino would have no chance to win from you. Not fair on them, is it?

Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR. This is 100% fair in my honest opinion.

I hope I have understood your complaint correctly, if not I apologise & ask that you explain further...

KK

I'm not convinced. This is what would happen to a new player, but Marino has, it seems, a long playing history with them. More and more this is looking like a case of turning a blind eye provided the player loses, but invoking the terms to avoid paying out on a win.
This is probably advantage play, but not notably so if this was simply normal VP play, rather than any kind of strategy.

This kind of thing is the reason I consider most Playtech casinos to be rogue, whatever their status. MGS casinos do not have the above problem, save for a couple, but these do make it clear in the terms that certain games are "restricted".

With the state of the industry today, it is unwise to take chances with any terms mentioning "restricted" games, and even where games simply "do not count", it is best to consider these as also "restricted".
I am sure some casinos leave these "loopholes" in place as a snare to trap those players who are looking for an advantage strategy, because the cautious player will take a cautious view and avoid ANY games that are in some way "restricted".

The next step for Marino is to complain to whoever regulates them, and discuss this in forums so that other players can learn from this. I expect the play history would show that the bonus money was never used in this instance, and this is a possible reason for the casino to procrastinate.

[marino]

That's it - I remember it all now.
You are totally not understanding how bonuses work.
I fully explained this in my reply to your PM at GU and in your Poll thread That's what Europacasino would like tohere:- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...9091-poll.html

In case you somehow missed it, I will repeat:-

I'm sorry, but I think the problem is you don't understand how 99% of casino bonuses work;

Once a bonus is added to your account (whether you asked for it or not) you are 100% committed to completing the WR in accordance with all their terms & restrictions before you can withdraw your money.
This is the only way the casinos can stop players taking a bonus, placing only a few bets, or low-risk bets and then walking away with THEIR money (the bonus).

Now the way they word the condition about using your money first can be a little bit confusing, but it's just to convey that you can't take say a 100% bonus, play until you have lost half your bankroll, and then just withdraw all your deposit. If you did that you would be getting a totally risk free chance to win from the casino, but the casino would have no chance to win from you. Not fair on them, is it?

Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR. This is 100% fair in my honest opinion.

I hope I have understood your complaint correctly, if not I apologise & ask that you explain further...

KK

Thank you for your reply. It was very clear and I appreciate. Nevertheless, I am not completely convinced:

You write:

"Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR."

That is what Europacasino would like to make believe. I don't think that this general rule applies to all casinos.

For instance, if you read the CentreBet's T&C – CentreBet is a Casinomeister Playtech accredited casino – you'll find:
"Please be aware that your casino balance is divided between your real balance and your bonus balance. Your bonus balance is only used once you have depleted your real balance. These bonus funds are not permitted to be used on the excluded games."
Most MG casinos have similar rules: bonus funds are used once cash balance is depleted. Using the bonus balance is the triggering factor of "wagering requirements"

As for Europacasino, I've read and read again their T&C. I didn't find any paragraph stating that the triggering factor of "WR" was wagering deposit funds.

On the contrary, you can find:

" The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS."

and
"We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games"


As a consequence, unless I'm shown the opposite, it is written in their T&C that the triggering factor of "wagering requirements" is the wagering of play bonus, which occurs when the deposit funds are depleted.


That's the reason why it is so important to get the game history.

[vinylweatherman]

Thank you for your reply. It was very clear and I appreciate. Nevertheless, I am not completely convinced:

You write:

"Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR."

That is what Europacasino would like to make believe. I don't think that this general rule applies to all casinos.

For instance, if you read the CentreBet's T&C – CentreBet is a Casinomeister Playtech accredited casino – you'll find:
"Please be aware that your casino balance is divided between your real balance and your bonus balance. Your bonus balance is only used once you have depleted your real balance. These bonus funds are not permitted to be used on the excluded games."
Most MG casinos have similar rules: bonus funds are used once cash balance is depleted. Using the bonus balance is the triggering factor of "wagering requirements"

As for Europacasino, I've read and read again their T&C. I didn't find any paragraph stating that the triggering factor of "WR" was wagering deposit funds.

On the contrary, you can find:

" The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS."

and
"We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games"


As a consequence, unless I'm shown the opposite, it is written in their T&C that the triggering factor of "wagering requirements" is the wagering of play bonus, which occurs when the deposit funds are depleted.


That's the reason why it is so important to get the game history.

It is not so much the trigger point for WR, as to whether a bet is allowed on a restricted game. Clearly, it is only when BONUS money is used as part or all of a wager on a restricted game that the clause "We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player's withdrawal" is triggered.
However, this is not a Microgaming casino, nor an accredited Playtech one. It is a member of the "semi-rogue" class. They are trying to avoid payment based on a highly biased interpretation of what they have written in the terms. The SPIRIT of this clause was to cover wagers made straight after deposit consisting of the entire balance on one roughly evens outcome on one of the restricted games, followed by "normal play" to beat WR. ROGUE casinos have taken this to the extreme, by counting even a single wager AS PART OF A "NORMAL" PATTERN OF PLAY as enough to confiscate winnings, EVEN WHEN the term they have specifically forbids such wagers ONLY if bonus money is used.
MOST casinos with restricted games though do not make the distinction, play is forbidden on restricted games regardless of whether deposit or bonus money is used. Some Microgaming casinos have again brought back these restricted game clauses, and confusingly some of these also use the "clear & simple" Microgaming bonus system.

Play history IS important in determining whether BONUS funds were used, but it matters not to a rogue whether you are correct, they will STILL not pay once they have decided not to. The fact they don't want to release this play history makes me highy suspicious that they have something to hide, such as this NOT being the real reason for confiscating the winnings, and if you could show only deposited funds were used, they would then be faced with making payment, or providing both the correct explanation, plus damage limitation to cover the initial lie.
Naturally, were they to lose this & be forced to pay, it will be by bank draft, delivered by horse & cart