issuing a challenge to 32red/mg

[Pinababy69]

Alex, you gotta leave that Break Da Bank alone. That game is a killer. I think I've played it three times, and don't know why I went back after the first time. It is extremely high variance, and in my own very limited experience with it, going hundreds upon hundreds of spins with nothing back is not unusual.

Ladies Nite is another one, that for me personally, has always sucked. I've played Thunderstruck my last two sessions at 32Red, and have had extremely good playtime on it, like two hours or more on a $20 deposit. And that's playing 18c and 27c bets. That's the first time I've gone near that game in months. I've been playing alot of No Worries lately, and have done well on that one too. You can go 300 or 400 spins with nothing. But you can also hit huge on very small bets ie. again 18 or 27 cents.

You probably do the same thing I do, and that is get stuck in one game, figuring it HAS to hit eventually, lol. Nope...it doesn't. I've gotten a bit better in that I'll switch around more now, and if I do get ahead on a game, I'll move on to something else.

I know there have been many complaints of late re: MG payouts, but I have been playing at 32Red for about four years now...the last two exclusively for MG, and I honest to God don't notice any difference. I've had some horrid sessions of late, but I've always had those. I've also had some very good playtime on very small deposits. That's just me, not trying to discount your experience, just sharing my own.

[Alexishot69]

baby i hear ya totally...and ur right i play bdb hoping it MUST hit..but hey the way i look at it is this way ok..here in the uk we have pub machines which play for 30p a spin and jackpot is £35 ok...now ok 18p is just over 1/2 that but if you were standing in a pub slotting £100s and hitting zero you would have an issue with the machine however most payout at least £35 every few 100 spins..and thats o a 72%+ payout..now to go 1000s of spins and hit a max £6 is and im sorry but a hmmmm i dare say it "unusual" % payout..and pina i do believe ya but lets face it when you deposit £100s and get £0 in return not one winning session then you auto and i think rightly think something is a just not right ....ive also played mg for years pina and id bet my life on it that these slots are as tight now as they have ever been...

[Jufo]

Originally Posted by hippo925

Just to clarify, if i had $100 and $20 of it was still a bonus: if i parked a bonus on cashipillar and ended up with $0. I could log out or whatever, but once i played the bonus and won, for example, $200, there will still be $20 in my bonus balance, and $180 in my cash balane. hope that clarifies. the mg system will only end your bonus coupon when you have a zero balance and NO parked games.

The only reason i brought this up was the interesting things i saw when i did this. I thought it might lend some insight in the OP's frustration in the return %'s at MG casinos.

This is very interesting. I once did an experiment at MG casino using this strategy. I "parked" my balance on bonus features, but exited the game without playing those features. I only returned to play the features after I had zeroed my balance. What happened was interesting: Out of the five or so features I played, I received almost nothing from any of them, for example picking "Stop" symbol as the first pick in all pick'em bonuses. That seemed bizarre considering that the outcomes should be random. Maybe this is what you are referring to Hippo925?

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by hippo925

i don't know if this will be helpful, but i know other people have mentioned this in the past. On MG software, you can "park" your bonuses and play them at a later time.

My technique was to pick 18 games (it doesn't matter which ones... trust me).... they get saved into your "favorites" screen. Then i would systematically play 50 spins on every game until i hit a bonus. Once i hit a bonus, i move on to the next game unil i have all 18 bonuses or i run out of money.

I then went to play all the bonuses.... i've done this hundreds of times.

Without saying anything else, i believe you can get some really interesting insight into how the mg software plays and it might not be what you think in terms of how the return % is processed.

MG fixed that one shortly after the release of EZBonus - it won't work, EZBonus takes it into account. It worked for a short while after EZBonus was introduced, but try it now, made a new deposit, and EZBonus "remembers", so you missed the boat, sad to say.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by Jufo

This is very interesting. I once did an experiment at MG casino using this strategy. I "parked" my balance on bonus features, but exited the game without playing those features. I only returned to play the features after I had zeroed my balance. What happened was interesting: Out of the five or so features I played, I received almost nothing from any of them, for example picking "Stop" symbol as the first pick in all pick'em bonuses. That seemed bizarre considering that the outcomes should be random. Maybe this is what you are referring to Hippo925?

Yes, this is one of those "experiments" that exposes some of the "sham" behind the MG software. If the results were determined from when you went back in and THEN played the bonuses, this kind of thing would not happen. The results have been already pre-determined, this was shown BEFORE they fixed this exploit, and the bug in the "bonus bubble". The "bonus bubble" bug showed that the software had ALREADY caclulated your overall win BEFORE you even made your first selection. It also revealed the "short cut" in the VP Double feature, where the card YOU get to "choose" has already been picked for you, and the result determined. Whatever card YOU choose, you will always get the predetermined one shown, win or lose, and the other cards shown you could NEVER have selected.

One of the other experiments is progressive betting on the slots, once the scatters start appearing more frequently, you can put your bet up a little. If this happens after one of the LONG spells between bonus rounds, you can INCREASE the bets after each bonus round in the hope you have caught the cluster, often, the cluster includes at least one retriggering bonus round. Predicting the end of the cluster is hit & miss, because once you have had a long enough gap to show you the cluster is over, it is too late.

But, Goddammit!!! MG fixed this too

THIS is what has changed with Munchkins, these clusters no longer follow a cycle, the bonus rounds are more RANDOM, and somehow this does NOT affect the overall RTP (I'm not so sure).

There are probably a few more of these "gut feeling" patterns that have been fixed, and this is why we keep saying "the games are playing differently since..........."

I expect players were taking advantage of spotting the lead-in to the clusters, and this was better exploited on the lower variance slots, such as Munchkins, and yes, guilty as charged (Remember Munchkin Meister, when I caught the cycle SPOT ON, and hit the big re-triggering one with £67.50 a spin - I was lucky, they could never be predicted down to that level, and sometimes there would be a "skip", the buildup of scatters appearing, but no cluster, and you bust trying.

They also had a mess around with Mega Moolah, decreasing considerably the per $ probability of triggering the bonus wheel. We were fed a line about "fewer player are playing, so you don't see so many 'another player won' messages' ". This was disingenious, since fewer players would mean fewer "another player" messages AND LESS INPUT TO THE POOLS! - the two would balance, and the jackpots would have fallen less frequently, BUT FOR STASTISTICALLY SIMILAR AMOUNTS.

To be honest, I LIKED the chance to Mega Moolah, since it gave a point to the Minor and Mini, but MG felt they had to sweep it under the carpet, and put things back the way they were. I would prefer them to go back to 3 and 4 figure Minis, and just be up front about it, have it launched properly as a desirable change, perhaps along with the "my slot" idea.

My belief is that the RNG itself is indeed random, as MG claim, and note this is HOW THEY WORD IT, the GAMES though, have an "engine" that converts a stream of random numbers into a sequence of game results. To add some spice and excitement, I have suspected there is some kind of weighting envelope that is used to give periods of enhanced payouts, coupled with periods of "suck", just like Fruit Machines. This is what keeps players playing Fruit Machines, so why would this not work online too.

When MG make these cock-ups, these things get revealed, never fully, but we get to see something a little "odd".

Does anyone remember 2006, Summer into Autumn. MiniVegas ended up cooling their heels in the rogue pit for a short while because they were confiscating winnings left, tight , and centre. They then offered the most PECULIAR defense to the forum, and this was that SOME players (not the multiple account fraudsters, who were fairly and squarely BUSTED), had their winnings confiscated for what was "illegitimate play, which was neither fraud, or bonus abuse". This would have been pretty hard to prove, given that quite a number of players had NOT taken a bonus, and had played only on SLOTS!

So, here we have RANDOM slots, supposedly "illegitimately played" to the extent that players had WINNINGS CONFISCATED.

WTF happend - WTF knows (except Microgaming of course, and they just won't say for "security reasons").

Whatever happend, MG updated something, and made a "clusterf***" of it - and operators were left to clean up the mess.

So, in short, MG CAN CHANGE the parameters of EXISTING games, this doesn't mean the have, or they will, but it DID happen to Mega Moolah, and it was noticed by so many that I can say "IT HAPPENED", and MG said nothing. If something has been changed and we DON'T notice, well OF COURSE; MGS WILL KEEP QUIET.

So, I will add Alexis' challenge,

MGS - WTF HAPPENED with this "illegitimate play" fiasco in 2006 - stories of mass confiscations do not go down well, especially when all we get are vague explanations, and ones which have NOTHING to do with "bonus abuse".

MGS - Are older 5 Reel slots WEIGHTED, meaning the patterns are FOR REAL, and not just me imagining that the reels keep on landing on some positions more often that the others - slots like 5 Reel Drive, Carnaval etc.

What about the newer ones, weighted or not.

[hippo925]

Originally Posted by Jufo

This is very interesting. I once did an experiment at MG casino using this strategy. I "parked" my balance on bonus features, but exited the game without playing those features. I only returned to play the features after I had zeroed my balance. What happened was interesting: Out of the five or so features I played, I received almost nothing from any of them, for example picking "Stop" symbol as the first pick in all pick'em bonuses. That seemed bizarre considering that the outcomes should be random. Maybe this is what you are referring to Hippo925?

Darn, vinyl posted while i was writing this and his explanations and theories are always better worded i'm posting anyway, lol.

Without going into too much detail, the impression i got was that it didn't matter which games you played. I always picked 18 games (max number of games you can have in your "favorites" section) and the result was that your session will either be fair (in the sense that you get a fair payback) or that your session will be poor. Either way, it didn't matter which games you picked.

After a while, i was able to predict how well my 15-18 bonuses would pay depending on how the first few went. The variance on the games did not matter. break the bank again and cashapillar could give a bonus every 50 spins, but munchkins and ho ho ho would take over 300 spins each to get the bonus... or vice versa.

Also, each session would generally have 3 or 4 games that gave a decent bonus but it seemed it was dependent on the order in which i played the bonuses. For example, if i played the "low" variance bonuses first and did well, cashapillar, avalon, mad hatters, etc. always paid squat. If the high variance games did well, all the others would be small.

My best bonuses on games like munchkins, jungle jim, and cabin fever happened when all my other bonuses paid poorly. Also, it didn't matter how many bonuses out of the 18 i would get. i could get all 18 or just 6 out of 18 and the payback would be about 60-80% of what i lost depending on streak.

A winning streak will see most of the bonuses paying well and increasing your balance up to 150%, but it is ALWAYS followed by a down streak more along the lines of the 60-80% i described earlier.

i've played avalon before and went 1000 spins without a bonus, i've also gone nearly 1000 spins without a bonus playing the "parking" method (that means going 50 spins without a bonus in 10 different games straight). This game me the impression that it really didn't matter what game i was playing and that it depended more on the "streak" i was going to have...

In other words, i truly believe that the mg slots pay back a certain %, i'm just not sure they do it the way everyone thinks they do it.

one thing to keep in mind.... if a really bad session is explained by "it takes millions of spins to reach the theoretical payout", then how is it that a really good streak only takes one or two sessions to balance out? Just a thought.

oh, and ps... after mad hatterrs was "upgraded," no one can convince me that it didn't play way different for the worse!

[Jufo]

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

Yes, this is one of those "experiments" that exposes some of the "sham" behind the MG software. If the results were determined from when you went back in and THEN played the bonuses, this kind of thing would not happen. The results have been already pre-determined, this was shown BEFORE they fixed this exploit, and the bug in the "bonus bubble".

I didn't really get the answer I was looking for yet. Forget about the playing with bonus aspect. If I play without a bonus and trigger a bunch of features on different slots (those slots that are supposed to be random) and I play those features later, will the bonus rounds give statistically random outcomes? If they don't isn't that a very serious issue of cheating?

Path has responded questions about randomness in the other thread. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about this.

Originally Posted by hippo925

Also, each session would generally have 3 or 4 games that gave a decent bonus but it seemed it was dependent on the order in which i played the bonuses. For example, if i played the "low" variance bonuses first and did well, cashapillar, avalon, mad hatters, etc. always paid squat. If the high variance games did well, all the others would be small.

If this is true then it indicates that the outcomes are not random. Past "luck" should not affect future luck because random events don't have memory.

[Jasminebed]

MG slots only publish an overall payout, just as the land-based casinos I play at do.

And players often forget all the "little" wins that make up part of the payback percentage, since we play them back.

Let's say I get theoretical payback on a slot of 95%

I put in $100

I play 50 spins at $2, I win $95 dollars...It does not take long to play fifty spins

I play $95 dollars, I win $90.25

I play $90.25, I win $83.75

I think we can all see where this is headed.

I depost $100, play for a while and zero out. My payback percentage is 95%, but my return is ZERO.

But without evidence to back it up, I do believe that some slots have their payback percentage changed without telling players. I really liked Hitman,and played a lot of it, and I am certain it has changed.

And from what I know of how land based audits are based, it assumes that all games ARE PLAYED EQUALLY. This is not true given players' likes/dislikes, so you can up the payout on a dog hoping more people play, or that it adjusts your overall payback percentage, and lower the payout on a popular game figuring you will keep your customer base anyway.

[hippo925]

Originally Posted by Jufo

If this is true then it indicates that the outcomes are not random. Past "luck" should not affect future luck because random events don't have memory.

this is of course speculation on my part through some pretty extensive experience, but i believe kimms summed up this idea with his discussion on how he would lose quite a bit on his regular games, then KNEW that he could consistently get a "big" win by lowering his bet and switching to any other game. It was apparently as if the software did have a memory in order to balance out the payout %.

Payback still 95%? yes. Random? Depends on your definition. Cheating software? Depends on your definition.

Again, the big question should be why it would take millions of spins to realize the payout % when you have bad streaks, but it only takes a few hundred when you get a good streak.

[patrina]

Originally Posted by hippo925

i don't know if this will be helpful, but i know other people have mentioned this in the past. On MG software, you can "park" your bonuses and play them at a later time.

My technique was to pick 18 games (it doesn't matter which ones... trust me).... they get saved into your "favorites" screen. Then i would systematically play 50 spins on every game until i hit a bonus. Once i hit a bonus, i move on to the next game unil i have all 18 bonuses or i run out of money.

I then went to play all the bonuses.... i've done this hundreds of times.

Without saying anything else, i believe you can get some really interesting insight into how the mg software plays and it might not be what you think in terms of how the return % is processed.

This is interesting..but is it really allowed? I know I have logged on once or twice to find a bonus game waiting for me and I didn't even realize I had hit it. Probably happened when I left a game too quickly or something. Anyway, I usually get too excited to be able to leave a bonus round till later, that or I am so damn low I dont have a choice
Patrina