It just gets worse

**Achenar** · 22nd November 2008, 07:39 PM

Hello crushers,
I'm surprised it took you guys/gals this long to figure this out.I knew these casinos have changed the payout structure. 3-4 yrs ago i seen changes in the software.i thought it was myself and the bad luck but i know it had nothing to do with bad luck losing streak what ever you want to call it.This is why i quit yrs ago i still come here to see if others have had this experience.now i see it's even been worse in the past few yrs.Im surprised you have not seen this like i did yrs ago.i feel for those that believe that casinos are fair.for every 1 person that does win 100s lose if not thousands.I always knew i was right.Now it just proves i was right about online gambling and how casinos did and have patterns.Ive seen this thousands of times and even wrote letters to the casinos telling them i'm aware of the casinos changing the payout ratio at will.
all i get is sorry for your unlucky streak..Is this a casinos new way of saying ya we change it when ever we want without your knowledge.

**Josh66** · 25th November 2008, 12:40 PM

I am really shocked at some of this.

To someone who is not good at figures (doh!), is it basically being said that each spin is not truly "random" then and that some predetermined pattern is being played out?

This would certainly explain me losing another tousand quid over the weekend, mainly at various Rivals which after thousands of spins just never pay out and play becomes dull as hell or Canbet where 100 quid will last you 10 minutes if you are lucky!

Rgds
J

**vinylweatherman** · 25th November 2008, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Josh66

I am really shocked at some of this.

To someone who is not good at figures (doh!), is it basically being said that each spin is not truly "random" then and that some predetermined pattern is being played out?

This would certainly explain me losing another tousand quid over the weekend, mainly at various Rivals which after thousands of spins just never pay out and play becomes dull as hell or Canbet where 100 quid will last you 10 minutes if you are lucky!

Rgds
J

Long ago, before this was such a hot topic. I posted a warning about what might happen if the games were NOT Random, and UK "Fruitie experts" found out this.

From nearly 40 years of Fruit Machine play, I have trained my mind to see these "cycles" "software blocks" and "patterns". It IS possible with this knowledge to get a personal RTP well in excess of 100% from machines wit a set RTP of between 70% and 80%, purely by observing the patterns from a few spins (preferrably made & paid of by another player

), and deciding whether a point has been reached that would result in a 100%+ return from the next reasonably short segment of the cycle (usually involving the release of the "streak pot" at the end).

Online casinos SHOULD have nothing to fear, since their games are random,

OK, so whay are some sh1t**g their p***s when some of their slot players "win too much", Rival, - they reduce coin size, as well as implement a bonus ban, which they have now offered a partial explanation for.

MiniVegas had a bout of diarrhoea, and confiscated winnings from players they accused of "illegitimate play", or "manipulating the games" to offer a rough translation. You simply CANNOT manipulate future outcomes by playing "illegitimately" with past bets if the games are RANDOM.

The technique now in the frame to explain this presupposes that tricking the software into thinking you have lost big (parking bonus rounds) causes it to "streak" to rebalance closer to the 95% overall RTP, and that having had the balancing streak, the player simply "unparks" the bonus rounds and throws the RTP above 100%.
This kind of thing WORKS on MOST Fruit Machines, it is commonly referred to as "forcing".

**kimss** · 25th November 2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by vinylweatherman

The technique now in the frame to explain this presupposes that tricking the software into thinking you have lost big (parking bonus rounds) causes it to "streak" to rebalance closer to the 95% overall RTP, and that having had the balancing streak, the player simply "unparks" the bonus rounds and throws the RTP above 100%.
This kind of thing WORKS on MOST Fruit Machines, it is commonly referred to as "forcing".

I suppose the question then will be if we are playing against ourself or against all players (for the balancing to occure). If we are playing against ourself then forcing a higher pay would render future gameplay impossible since the bad streak destined to occure afterwards would compensate for whatever extra you managed to squeeze out of the parked bonuses. This would mean that you in reality only have 1 possible point in an account to be able to win before retirering a "busted" account.

It does seem that even the players not believing the games are rigged in reality shares this opinion, since players winning big quickly close down the account scared to wager any more due to a big win.

**KasinoKing** · 25th November 2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Josh66

I am really shocked at some of this.

To someone who is not good at figures (doh!), is it basically being said that each spin is not truly "random" then and that some predetermined pattern is being played out?

Some players believe this to be the case, and some do not.
I am a 'not' (i.e. I do believe each spin is completely random & not affected by anything else at all).

However, whichever theory you believe there is absolutely no way for any of us to prove anything.

Basically you have 2 choices:-
a) You trust the games to be fair & random - so you play them, or
b) You think they are rigged in some way - so you should not play them.

Just my 2c.

**gedneil** · 26th November 2008, 06:44 PM

same here been playing on mg for 3 days highest win 15.00 wouldnt mind but at 2.50 a shot they are taking the mickey we never learn u always think the next spin surley they can have my last tonight and thats me finished with them.

**Jufo** · 26th November 2008, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

However, whichever theory you believe there is absolutely no way for any of us to prove anything.

I don't think that's true. All you need is a large amount of data. For example if ALL players at Casinomeister forum would provide their play data into the data pool, such resulting data could be comprehensive enough to draw conclusions about the randomness.

**vinylweatherman** · 27th November 2008, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by kimss

I suppose the question then will be if we are playing against ourself or against all players (for the balancing to occure). If we are playing against ourself then forcing a higher pay would render future gameplay impossible since the bad streak destined to occure afterwards would compensate for whatever extra you managed to squeeze out of the parked bonuses. This would mean that you in reality only have 1 possible point in an account to be able to win before retirering a "busted" account.

It does seem that even the players not believing the games are rigged in reality shares this opinion, since players winning big quickly close down the account scared to wager any more due to a big win.

What is more telling are the CASINOS that believe this. Many will cut back further incentives to deposit after a player has had a huge win. This, however, is NOT simply confined to where players are deemed to have taken advantage of a conjunction of promotions and game selections to run a mildly +EV set of sessions, it has happened when player simply "got lucky" in what was otherwise a steady -EV decline as would be expected.

I was once bonus banned after a steady run of -EV play was interrupted by a 4OK, side bet & all, and dealer QUALIFYING, on stud poker. It was a single and completely lucky hit that changed me into an overall winner. This lead the casino to believe, somehow, this made me a higher risk of doing it again, whereas mathematics and common sense dictates that the best move would be to think of an incentive to get it back.
Players see and experience these things, and thus come to believe that there must be something in it.

If a casino knew for a fact that the games could NEVER be "illegitimately played", they would be after the repeat custom of lucky winners just as much as losers.

The other explanation, of course, is that all these "well respected industry veterans" just don't have a clue, and are simply scared when players hit big, and would rather they go elsewhere if they are going to do it again.

The other puzzling case is how casinos handle the bot issue. Bots were designed for one thing, doing bonuses, they work on the principle of losing quickly, but as close to long term RTP as possible, yielding a profit once a bonus is taken into account. Players silly enough to use a bot without a bonus are simply a long term cash cow for the casino, and since, unlike poker, no other player sufferes, it would seem that this should be a low priority issue. Casinos seem genuinely scared now of the latest casino bots, even when not used for their traditional purpose of clearing bonuses. It seems they are UNSURE about whether there may be a strategy to beat their random games, and are simply not prepared to take the risk, so embark on a bot "witch hunt", partly as a method to deter those who might THINK of trying out a bot in the future, as well as save money from both bonus player who use bots, and non bonus players who simply got lucky.
Stupid again, pay them, and they will use the bot again, and again, and in the long term the house edge will bite their ass, and they will realise their bot didn't work after all, but they have then lost a fortune to the casino to derive the proof.

It boils down to two options.

1) The games are NOT entirely random, and there ARE ways to beat the house WITHOUT using promotions.

2) The people at the top simply do not understand casino mathematics, and run scared at every bump in the cloth, shout from the slots, or pile of chips leaving the floor - simply because these are so obvious, unlike the steady and unseen stream of losers who are feeding it all.