[Resolved] Casino Club - robot or no bot?

[Kodi]

Not sure what you are getting at.

My point is general - not related to this PaB. I know players who have been accused of useing bots by CC and treated extremly unprofesional! Here are some of my conlusions:

1) CC checks play logs only when they have to pay. They dont care until you hit, so then they can use bot excuse to take winnings! So they are GOOD BOTS and BAD BOTS. Those GOOD are loseing money to CC and are warmly welcome.

2) Players caught on useing bot shouldbe treaded according to thier T&C: winnings made by useing bot void and deposit returned. RIGHT? If not this is criminal activity and You shouldnt support that. I know that CC dont want give back players deposits useing bot excuse.

more to come soon...

[RobWin]

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation"
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.(

Przecinek, I think you have grossly under estimated Max's efforts around here to try an assist players whom are in need of the PAB service. Max works continuously on these PAB's...hell he even invites them at times, just go and read in the "GoWild Thread" where he has invited players to PAB...Max is one hell of a major asset to this forum board and has been since he first came on here !!

What other casino forum board even offers this service ??

[vinylweatherman]

Is there even a bot available that can recreate the same "human like" playing patterns.

Maybe the player had written out a set of strategy rules, and was following them. This is "bot-like" play, and requires little decision making. However, there is nothing in the terms that say you cannot use notes, it's not an EXAM!!

To prove that it is even LIKELY a bot was used, someone should be tasked with producing the bot.

The length of play and breaks themselves are NOT against the rules, and it is not good enough simply to say that a bot is involved without investigating whether the technology has currently been able to come up with one good enough.
The casino initially did NOT ALLOW DEBATE, it was done & dusted. It was only the player's persistence that has us picking over the evidence, and seeing it is by no means certain.

Currently, this allows casinos to "cry bot" every time they get beaten by a player who has had long sessions with only short breaks. The much longer 15 minute break shown up seems to have been ignored by the casino, yet this is VERY SIGNIFICANT, since it sways the balance well into being a human, who has punctuated a long session with short breaks with a decent sized one. This is no different from what is expected of assembly line workers, who may well have a 12 hour shift, and only a couple of breaks throughout the day that are 15 minutes or more.

When I played Fruit Machines, I could play from dawn to dusk, with the breaks being walking from one location to another. I was NEVER slung out for being a bot

[aka23]

It's my understanding that the player did not not take a bonus and did not have a wagering requirement. If so, there is no reason for the player to have used a bot, as there are no longer EV+ games at CC (SD BJ was removed). Furthermore, skimming through the German discussion forum, heffernan certainly does not sound like a bot user. I suspect that the player was wrongly flagged for bot use, and that CC's bot detection methods are based on hours of play without break, rather than more accurate methods. From what I can see, both CasinoClub's confiscation of 8000€ without solid evidence and heffernan's initial PIB results & forum banning are concerning. Please correct me, if I am missing something.

[DiamondGeezer]

Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.

I am cool with your disagreement but just trying to give a different perspective.

I feel this guy is on trial and needs a good lawyer to come to his defence. Yes 14 hours is pretty unusual but why should that make him guilty? For all we know the guy could have been on a plane or a ferry. Or he could be disabled. I have a good friend who is a quadraplageic and does at times spend 12 hours on computer with no bathroom break. My point is that without knowing the full story all sorts of things could be construed.

A more humdrum explanation could be that the guy could have gone to the bathroom right at the start of a minute and then come back 1m 50 secs later and played a hand. That would be perfectly plausible.

14 hours is unusual but if you asked a bunch of players if they have spent mental times playing online then a whole bunch of hands would go up. Sometimes you can get into that zone and all you want to do is play and play and play. Unusual and a bit sad - yes. Reason to deny cashout - no.

Besides everything else I don't even think that bots can be programmed to change bet size so frequently. I may be wrong about this though as I have never used one.

But as any player would tell you a fluctuating bet size to the extent that the player showed looks far more like a gambler than an advantage player using a bot. The idea of a bot player putting in huge bets is frankly ridiculous. As I said before it is the strategy that is the main evidence.

[Przecinek]

Przecinek, I think you have grossly under estimated Max's efforts around here to try an assist players whom are in need of the PAB service. Max works continuously on these PAB's...hell he even invites them at times, just go and read in the "GoWild Thread" where he has invited players to PAB...Max is one hell of a major asset to this forum board and has been since he first came on here !!

What other casino forum board even offers this service ??

I think, you have misinterpreted my post. If anything I have emphasized his role as a very significant one. So significant that the way MAX operates is under scrutiny of many rogue or roughish casinos (like Plum casino). If they see that "bot excuse" might be used without significant evidence you can be damn sure they'll follow CC's example.

Asking "What other casino forum board even offers this service ??" suggests you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

Well having said that, since I made another post: I know MAX is doing great job, I have also submitted one PAB maybe 8-9 months ago.
But as you can see all PAB's relating to 'BOT activity' have been discarded and forum members have been banned (reason 'Fraudlent PAB'). Meanwhile Roughish casinos are watching, this is what I referred to and I'm not sure why RobWin you've mixed it up with other casino topics & PAB's.

[RobWin]

[quote]

Like others I would Urge CM & Max to reconsider or seriously consider possible outcome of this PAB.

Reconsider what ?? They are still trying to determine "What" to consider in the first place !

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation"
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.

You are the one that has made a predetermined opinion on what Max's actions will be here in this case !!

We all remember "Lucky ace casino" when MAX initially told players that it's their own fault and discared all the PAB's ...and only after pressure from players action was taken. If nothing happens now, It's just a matter of time before more players come with same problem. You can obviously then close the whole PAB section down. Maybe that would be the best solution after all....

I don't remember it going down exactly like you state here !! And in your second statement in the direct quote above it sounds like you would be willing to put Max out of a job...you say "Maybe that would be the best solution after all" just to "close the whole PAB section down"

[quote]

I think, you have misinterpreted my post. If anything I have emphasized his role as a very significant one. So significant that the way MAX operates is under scrutiny of many rogue or roughish casinos (like Plum casino). If they see that "bot excuse" might be used without significant evidence you can be damn sure they'll follow CC's example.

Under scrutiny by who ??

Asking "What other casino forum board even offers this service ??" suggests you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

See above...

Well having said that, since I made another post: I know MAX is doing great job, I have also submitted one PAB maybe 8-9 months ago.
But as you can see all PAB's relating to 'BOT activity' have been discarded and forum members have been banned (reason 'Fraudlent PAB'). Meanwhile Roughish casinos are watching, this is what I referred to and I'm not sure why RobWin you've mixed it up with other casino topics & PAB's.

I don't see that Max has just simply discarded ALL PAB's regarding Bot Use !!

[heffernan]

hello,

i think i dont need to tell who i am. im sorry about my english or using translater.

first i have to say thanks @cm to unlock my account and give me the chance to explain. i also send my player history to bryan.
there i found enough breaks. in fourteen hours: eight times a 2 min; one time a 3 min; one time a 4 min; two times a 6 min; one time a 9 min; one time a 10 min; one time a 18 min; two times a 22 min. in all 110 min.
so the cc never really watched in my history. i also found my always telling break. this i also told the cc. but they never found it in their history. but i found it there. if they had remember the time zones, they would be able to find it (i always talk about in www.roulette-forum.de)

now i have finished reading all postings here. so i ask you to wait till tomorrow i will will anser and explain it. after working today more then ten hours and concentrate for this postings to understand, i also need a break. cause i have to work tomorrow too.

ps: in morning at 09.30 i talked to the support. they closed my file. and if i want, i can go by judge, they told me.

regrads
heffernan

[heffernan]

Kimss,

I respect your greater experience with all things gambling, but do you really think on this occasion, the bloke bet 62.5 euros? ;o)



I've checked a few pages and each time there is a win, the figure below it is a multiple. Paddy power have a similar system (I think it's PP) where they show the bet, then another line if it won.

KK,

The issue (for me) is whether this bloke got paid or not - I'm going to go and read the thread on the other forum, but how its been presented here is that he got extremely lucky and then Casino Club used a spurious 'bot play' argument to deny him his winnings. Perhaps someone can tell me if I am wrong, but bots are used to play lots of perfect games with small values so to get through wagering requirements. I can't imagine anyone buying a bot that played like this guy does..unless there is some flaw being taken advantage of in CC's software that has not been mentioned yet.

so think about Insurance against bj of the dealer.

regards

[Shocked]

hello,

i think i dont need to tell who i am. im sorry about my english or using translater.

first i have to say thanks @cm to unlock my account and give me the chance to explain. i also send my player history to bryan.
there i found enough breaks. in fourteen hours: eight times a 2 min; one time a 3 min; one time a 4 min; two times a 6 min; one time a 9 min; one time a 10 min; one time a 18 min; two times a 22 min. in all 110 min.
so the cc never really watched in my history. i also found my always telling break. this i also told the cc. but they never found it in their history. but i found it there. if they had remember the time zones, they would be able to find it (i always talk about in www.roulette-forum.de)

now i have finished reading all postings here. so i ask you to wait till tomorrow i will will anser and explain it. after working today more then ten hours and concentrate for this postings to understand, i also need a break. cause i have to work tomorrow too.

ps: in morning at 09.30 i talked to the support. they closed my file. and if i want, i can go by judge, they told me.

regrads
heffernan

Heffernan,

You won't get any argument from me about the validity of your claim, I've had a good look at those logs and read the posts on the German forums and I think the way Casino Club has behaved is disgraceful. Like I have said on this thread, either they've messed up and didn't really do their 'security checks' or they truely believe the 'bot' nonsense. Either way, it looks bad on them.

I hope you get your winnings.