Slot Mechanics (Was: Fruit Frenzy Game glitch or frenzy?)

[DogBoy001]

Thanks Lauriejim, good to be here!

[Rusty]

Thanks again Dogboy it is great to have someone with inside technical knowledge posting on these boards.

2) Reel strips may be altered (improved, they are never made worse in any game I've ever been involved in) during feature sequences only, and/or


I am afraid to say that removing the feature and wild symbol from reel One (Ronin example) occurs during normal play and never improved things for me
I guess your response would be that this does not happen and you may be very sincere in this assertion but anyone who has played this slot enough and has even limited knowledge of how these games function will have noticed spells of 100 spins or more without even seeing the Ronin symbol in view and indeed it does seem to disappear even in the spin animation.
This occurs much too frequently to be put down to variance and what are the chances of the Ronin symbol not appearing anywhere in view for 100 spins or more, phenomenal I am sure.
I always found that odd as it is not difficult to animate a reel strip unless you want to alter it dynamically.
I am just very curious as to why there would be the need to have this level of control over a random slot?
Why is it not possible to just design a slot that has no memory a 95% payout, is completely random, has static symbols and does NOT have predetermined feature results?
What are the casinos afraid of?

If I am deciphering points 2 and 3 correctly you are also stating that re-triggers may be made more likely during some free spin rounds and this would certainly seem to be the case.
On the face of it that sounds wonderful but since there is a lot evidence that suggests the bonus round results are predetermined it becomes less so.
I do not want an artificial (simulated) roller coaster ride I want to jump out of the plane and pray my chute opens while in free-fall.

It is my guess that Casinos want a guaranteed First Year profit (a level of control) and software that will deliver this, one thing is for sure that neither RTG or MG software would pass UK gambling commission regulations in their current guise.
I do not accept what is often assumed on these boards that the software providers lay down the law to Casinos on RTP.
Common sense tells me that if I am buying a product the seller will not demand I have a certain colour(cursed US spell checker the word is COLOUR), size and model. If they did I would surely take my business elsewhere.

Please do not take any of what I say as a personal attack because I value your technical knowledge greatly.
I am simply raising some familiar issues of the regular slots player......and since you are here

Thanks again for your very informative posts.

[vinylweatherman]

Heya,

In relation to the random jackpots you're correct.
All the calculations are based on a bet size of say, $1, for ease of calculation (though the mark is irrelevant because the trigger probability is simply relative).

A bet of 1c would have 1/100 of the standard trigger chance, while a bet of $5 would have 5 times the standard level.
As of late this year RTG games using random jackpots will identify (in rules art) maximum total jackpot component of RTP as no more than 1.5% (this includes both the increment value and the reset value)

It's actually lower than this but 1.5 is a nice round number

Da Dog

Good answers

These questions have been discussed and theorised for some time. I now have another follow-on question.

If the RTP component for the Random Jackpots cannot exceed 1.5, how does this fit with what players have reported seeing at Rushmore, which is also RTG.

Here, the Random Jackpots fly far, far, higher than at any RTG casino, and rise faster.

Rising faster can simply be explained by more money being played through the machine than at other RTG casinos, but there are two other points.

Given that:-

All the calculations are based on a bet size of say, $1, for ease of calculation (though the mark is irrelevant because the trigger probability is simply relative).

A bet of 1c would have 1/100 of the standard trigger chance, while a bet of $5 would have 5 times the standard level.

How can the Rushmore jackpots survive more "standard trigger chances" before being won than at any other RTG casino? This contradicts what has so far been explained about how Random Jackpots, RTP contributions, and standard trigger chances work.

On top of this, there is the matter of them being won, and then reappearing at $5000 reset value, not $1000. Whatever proportion of RTP contributes towards the reset, Rushmore are using 5x. If individual operators cannot alter these RTP components, what is going on here with this REPUTABLE RTG casino. They seem to have software options that have not been seen in use at any other RTG.

[Rusty]

My guess would be that they link more slots together for the RJ than some other RTG's
I think the Casino has the option of how many slots to link for a RJ.
If this is correct it would also give the illusion of them being won less often and explain why they go up so quickly.
Dogboy over to you.

[DogBoy001]

I am afraid to say that removing the feature and wild symbol from reel One (Ronin example) occurs during normal play and never improved things for me
I guess your response would be that this does not happen and you may be very sincere in this assertion but anyone who has played this slot enough and has even limited knowledge of how these games function will have noticed spells of 100 spins or more without even seeing the Ronin symbol in view and indeed it does seem to disappear even in the spin animation.
This occurs much too frequently to be put down to variance and what are the chances of the Ronin symbol not appearing anywhere in view for 100 spins or more, phenomenal I am sure.

Heya Rusty,

100 spinds with no Ronin symbols in view?
On all reels?
I gather this is in real money mode?
And happens on all casinos? (I ask this last one not due to any operator ability to set game play attributes, but in response to the quote about first year profit.)
And only seems to occur on Ronin?

I always found that odd as it is not difficult to animate a reel strip unless you want to alter it dynamically.
I am just very curious as to why there would be the need to have this level of control over a random slot?
Why is it not possible to just design a slot that has no memory a 95% payout, is completely random, has static symbols and does NOT have predetermined feature results?
What are the casinos afraid of?

The games are designed as any normal land-based slot.
They have a fixed (by that I mean static and not dynamic per spin) reel strip (which we often improve during feature sequences) and definitely is not using pre-determined features (canned results).
Casinos often lose on several of the slots in any given month, which would be impossible if it was a pre-determined scenario.

If I am deciphering points 2 and 3 correctly you are also stating that re-triggers may be made more likely during some free spin rounds and this would certainly seem to be the case.
On the face of it that sounds wonderful but since there is a lot evidence that suggests the bonus round results are predetermined it becomes less so.
I do not want an artificial (simulated) roller coaster ride I want to jump out of the plane and pray my chute opens while in free-fall.

Well I agree that a free game or re-spin feature result that is determined at the outset would suck, but that's not how the games are designed, or implemented.
We engage in real money play in test...a lot...and we haven't experienced 100 spins without wilds or scatters...and I somehow doubt there are two sets of software running.

It is my guess that Casinos want a guaranteed First Year profit (a level of control) and software that will deliver this, one thing is for sure that neither RTG or MG software would pass UK gambling commission regulations in their current guise.

Actually, you'd be amazed at what would pass UK legislation
We have our games in numerous Talarius establishments in the UK (and soon to be with a few other groups).
There are several games out there from our competitors that flout the law entirely in regards to bet and win parameters on single games (beyond their stated ability to link several rounds), but the UK legislators a) do not care and b) do not have an enforcement ability at this time.

I'm sure casinos would love to be able to guarantee first year profit (or profit in any year for that matter!), but other than having an edge via RTP settings all I can say is that there is no turn-off switch.

I do not accept what is often assumed on these boards that the software providers lay down the law to Casinos on RTP.
Common sense tells me that if I am buying a product the seller will not demand I have a certain colour(cursed US spell checker the word is COLOUR), size and model. If they did I would surely take my business elsewhere.

According to that philosophy we'd never be able to sell a game anywhere
We give our buyers some (and in many caes no) level of input into many aspects of the game design process.
The buyer does not always know best.

RTP is determined at the software level.
I'm sure Warren would have loved the ability to adjust things himself when he was around, but that just ain't the case.
I've been telling my parents for 20 years that operators at their local clubs cannot just switch a machine, that's it's just not in the code...still can't convince them so I doubt I'll have much success here, but the same applies.

Thanks again for your very informative posts.

No worries!

[DogBoy001]

Good answers

These questions have been discussed and theorised for some time. I now have another follow-on question.

If the RTP component for the Random Jackpots cannot exceed 1.5, how does this fit with what players have reported seeing at Rushmore, which is also RTG.

Here, the Random Jackpots fly far, far, higher than at any RTG casino, and rise faster.

Rising faster can simply be explained by more money being played through the machine than at other RTG casinos, but there are two other points.

Given that:-




How can the Rushmore jackpots survive more "standard trigger chances" before being won than at any other RTG casino? This contradicts what has so far been explained about how Random Jackpots, RTP contributions, and standard trigger chances work.

On top of this, there is the matter of them being won, and then reappearing at $5000 reset value, not $1000. Whatever proportion of RTP contributes towards the reset, Rushmore are using 5x. If individual operators cannot alter these RTP components, what is going on here with this REPUTABLE RTG casino. They seem to have software options that have not been seen in use at any other RTG.

My guess would be that they link more slots together for the RJ than some other RTG's
I think the Casino has the option of how many slots to link for a RJ.
If this is correct it would also give the illusion of them being won less often and explain why they go up so quickly.
Dogboy over to you.

Yup, that is correct.

I neglected that RTG introduced an option for multi slot contribution to the random jackpots, with a $5000 reset and proportional adjustment to trigger chances. Total contribution is still less than 1.5% of total RTP in these instances.

If individual operators cannot alter these RTP components, what is going on here with this REPUTABLE RTG casino. They seem to have software options that have not been seen in use at any other RTG.

As with RTP settings (95 versus 97.5), this is something that operators can select to implement.
Throw into that list maximum bet (the Crystal group would allow up to $1000 bets, most others select $100, and Crystal also used the $5000 RJ resets)

Other than these parameters there aren't any aspects of gameplay that an operator has a selectable option over.

Da Dog

[bb28]

I just wanted to extend my welcome to you, Dogboy001 and a thank you for your informative posts! Very interesting reading.

[Rusty]

Hi dogboy,[

100 spinds with no Ronin symbols in view?
On all reels?
I gather this is in real money mode?
And happens on all casinos? (I ask this last one not due to any operator ability to set game play attributes, but in response to the quote about first year profit.)
And only seems to occur on Ronin?


I am giving Ronin as an example but this effect is by no means confined to the Ronin game or even RTG software and no not all reels just reel One although the other scatters will appear much less frequently and this will always occur after arun of features or one very good payout from a feature.
Yes real money mode though we are led to believe this one and the same as play money mode.
Another example different game different software would be MG's Halloweenies where the scatter symbols appear with great frequency on reels 4 and 5 and yet mysteriously appear very rarely when scatters are hit on reel One an Two.
The new Rival slot Jaquespott, same thing scatters every other spin on reels four and five but out of maybe 40 times of hitting the first two sctters I did not manage to trigger the feature once. Statistically about as likely as winning the lottery twice in a row.

On Ronin this has occured at probably every RTG casino I have played at and that maybe every RTG casino except the named rogues.

The games are designed as any normal land-based slot.
They have a fixed (by that I mean static and not dynamic per spin) reel strip (which we often improve during feature sequences) and definitely is not using pre-determined features (canned results).
Casinos often lose on several of the slots in any given month, which would be impossible if it was a pre-determined scenario.

It has been proven that many so called random features do indeed have canned results as you put it.
Bonus rounds for example being added to the balance before being started/completed.No reson to think free spin rounds are any different.
There are various threads here on the matter though granted much of the evidence is circumstantial.
That said even you admit that these rounds are manipulated at least a little sometimes so it is not a large step from there to my position.

Landbased video slot reelstrips most certainly are dynamic!
They add and take away bonus symbols all the time.
I hve played RTG games to death and can tell you exactly where a symbol will satop on the "longspin" (2 scatter symbols already in view) as soon as it starts the problem is the animation jumps and resets change things.
When an RTG slot is playing badly these resets are common and the feature never hits when they occur.
There should be no need for the reel animation position to be reset.
As an experiment I played at Two RTG casinos (same slot achilles) simultaneously.One Casino was "hot" and the other I had never had better than 70% RTP. The Casinos were Bodog and clubworld or inet I forget which.
At Bodog there were no reel sets and the animations were smooth at the other Casino the resets were frequent.Also the frequency of the more favourable symbols was greatly reduced at the second casino.
The connection at both casinos was excellent.

Actually, you'd be amazed at what would pass UK legislation
We have our games in numerous Talarius establishments in the UK (and soon to be with a few other groups).
There are several games out there from our competitors that flout the law entirely in regards to bet and win parameters on single games (beyond their stated ability to link several rounds), but the UK legislators a) do not care and b) do not have an enforcement ability at this time.

I'm sure casinos would love to be able to guarantee first year profit (or profit in any year for that matter!), but other than having an edge via RTP settings all I can say is that there is no turn-off switch.

I am quite well up on the gambling commissions requirements for gaming software to be licensed in the UK and hence everyone plonks their servers far far away although I understand there are obviously other incentives.
That is the reason they do not have enforcement ability.
Instead we have wonderful regulatory bodies like ecogra and licensing territories such as Kahnawake and costa rica, Belize and Antigua.

According to that philosophy we'd never be able to sell a game anywhere
We give our buyers some (and in many caes no) level of input into many aspects of the game design process.
The buyer does not always know best.

RTP is determined at the software level.
I'm sure Warren would have loved the ability to adjust things himself when he was around, but that just ain't the case.
I've been telling my parents for 20 years that operators at their local clubs cannot just switch a machine, that's it's just not in the code...still can't convince them so I doubt I'll have much success here, but the same applies.

I was not suggesting that operators have an input or would want any input into game design, leave it to the experts.
I was suggesting that a potential operator (customer) might want their slots set at 90% and you are saying that providers simply tell them to take their business elsewhere because they only provide 93%,95% and 97%.
I can't believe that, sorry.
As VWM asks what is the mechanism that alters payout% anyway if it is not through altering the paytable?

The "switch on a machine" certainly exists in AWP games, that is hardly a revelation and yes you are right you will never convince me (until properly licensed) that online slots are completely random and each result is completely independent from all previous results.
By the way for fun I made Two versions of the same 5 line video slot and made One completely random and put a subtle dynamic weighting system in the other.
The people who have tried them so far can not tell them apart (sounds like an advert for catfood ) so it is not hard to implement if the will is there.
Are casino operators hungry for guaranteed greater profits?

I doubt I will convince you either but hey ho I will give it a go

[Rusty]

I have just realised we have hijacked fleur de lis's thread. Sorry.
Maybe as you are a new member Dogboy and say you have experience in RTG slot design some of these later posts should be moved?
Bryan?

[vinylweatherman]

I neglected that RTG introduced an option for multi slot contribution to the random jackpots, with a $5000 reset and proportional adjustment to trigger chances. Total contribution is still less than 1.5% of total RTP in these instances.

This explains alot!

If the trigger chance was lowered as well as slots being linked, then indeed we would see exactly what players are reporting at Rushmore, rapid increase to very high RJ values before they are hit. This would not need any further RTP contribution than the stated 1.5

I think the other question has been answered, the change between 95% and 97.5% is achieved by small changes to the reel strips, such as substituting a low paying symbol for a wild, thus increasing payouts. Since RTG software handles this during bonus rounds as a matter of routine, it is no problem to have the same code create different payout versions of the base game, and have a selection list, currently said to be 3 variants of each slot.