Games with 'par' odds

[Wisenheimer]

Hello everybody on this forum! I would like to inquire about another marvel in the online casino world! I.e. games wherein the house odds do NOT outweigh the player's - no matter how they're called. So far I have encountered already two sites offering casino games of this kind - BetFair.com and BetVoyager.com. But I can't quite understand where the catch is. With BetFair it all seems quite straight forward, simply put just another way of promoting their platform, as they have not more than four of them, sharing not all too favorable rules as their obvious downside. With BetVoyager though I don't get it. All of their normal games have an 'equal odds' counterpart as they call it. Naturally, the first that came to my mind was that their software was probably tweaked affecting the game process. But the presence of a random number control feature (that I've tried to master for a week or so) kind a makes their promise of guaranteed randomness watertight. So then I figured that the games might not be on par odds AT ALL, but later, comparing them the normal version of Roulette for example, was convinced me of the opposite. The inevitable question rises: What's in it for the casino?! Because, if their players would really stand on equal odds with the house, it sure would mean we're dealing with one heck of an awesome casino, right?!!)

[KasinoKing]

It's a good question!

I would say BetVoyager's profits rely on 3 main factors:-
1. Some players may not realise that some of their zero house edge games are not actually zero edge.
e.g. I had a look at their roulette and only certain bets are zero edge. Any bets played on splits still carry a 2.70% H.A., unlike BetFair who's roulette has no zero. (I didn't look to see if something similar applies to other games).

Features of European Roulette without House Edge
A bet on a number (straight up) pays out 36:1, rather than 35:1.
If the ball lands on zero when the player has bet on even chances, a dozen or a column, the game ends in a draw and the player’s bet is returned to him.
There is no house edge in this game when the player bets on a number, a dozen, a column or on even chances.

2. To be honest, many gamblers don't know when to stop. Even with zero-edge games I would not be surprised if most of their customers carry on playing until they lose everything. I mean, there's not really much difference between regular blackjack with say 0.5% edge and one with 0%.

3. Players trying to 'break the bank' by martingaling for example, are still going to come up against table limits and the casino's 'infinite' bankroll. Again, they are just as likely to bust out whether the game is 5% H.A. or 0%.

It's a very interesting concept though and I would imagine, a successful one... for the casino!

[SlotMonster]

Originally Posted by KasinoKing

I would say BetVoyager's profits rely on 3 main factors:-

I would like to add 4th and 5th factor.
5. Honesty. I always got paid by BetVoyager, no matter which sum they must have paid to me.
6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.
i. Create the sequence. You will be given the SHA256-hash for this sequence which contain numbers (for Roulette) and server code word (to prevent cheating).
ii. Play.
iii. After you play, get initial text information, copy it in "Checksum" field, and press "Calculate checksum" button. If you'll receive the same checksum as you was given, it means that you played the same numbers and the casino hasn't cheated you. Also see atachment.

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

I would like to add 4th and 5th factor.
5. Honesty. I always got paid by BetVoyager, no matter which sum they must have paid to me.
6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.

That's all well & good, but what has that got to do with the OP's question :-

Originally Posted by Wisenheimer

The inevitable question rises: What's in it for the casino?!

[SlotMonster]

Well, I'm not a part of BV's management, so I cannot why exactly they've offered this feature. As skilled gambler I can say that it's no matter if you play with "no house edge" or without, because it ("no house edge" feature) makes sence only if you do flatbetting - at least you will lose less money. For betting strategies it's useless. So I may consider entering "No House Edge" just as promotion, to give a player little more advantage. But you know - the house always win. And "No House Edge" is just allow us play a bit longer. It's my opinion.

[GrandMaster]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

6. Randomness Control. I really think that this feature is revolutionary method to proof casino's honesty or dishonesty. It's very simple.
i. Create the sequence. You will be given the SHA256-hash for this sequence which contain numbers (for Roulette) and server code word (to prevent cheating).
ii. Play.
iii. After you play, get initial text information, copy it in "Checksum" field, and press "Calculate checksum" button. If you'll receive the same checksum as you was given, it means that you played the same numbers and the casino hasn't cheated you. Also see atachment.

This only proves that the casino did not change the previously determined outcome in response to your bets or in response to your playing decisions in games of strategy such as blackjack or in video poker.

It does not prove that the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent.

[SlotMonster]

Originally Posted by GrandMaster

This only proves that the casino did not change the previously determined outcome in response to your bets or in response to your playing decisions in games of strategy such as blackjack or in video poker.

It does not prove that the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent.

Very good point, GrandMaster, and I agree with you. And let me say a bit more...
As for me, I think it's better to say not "Randomness Control", but "Invariability Control". And yes, it doesn't prove the roulette spins or card shuffles have the right distribution and are independent. BUT! You can easily probe it yourself. All you have to do is to generate as many sequences as you want (it will take few minutes to receive the data about 1000's spins on roulette - just break the sequence without playing and only take the numbers), and then analyze the data you have just received. I think it will help you. And it's much easier than if you should have played these numbers and only after this you would be able to analyze.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by SlotMonster

So I may consider entering "No House Edge" just as promotion, to give a player little more advantage. But you know - the house always win. And "No House Edge" is just allow us play a bit longer. It's my opinion.

Maybe, you are right and No house edge is a only promotion, but I would like to note one thing: the payouts for No house edge games higher than at the games without this advantage.
For example, at Betfair's Zero Blackjack "Suited Natural Blackjack" pays 2:1 and at Betvoyager's European Blackjack blackjack with an Ace-King of spades pays 7:1, instead of the standard payout of 3:2 for a blackjack.
I understand, that it is possible to feel this advantage only at not short and correct game.
But all the same, It's better.

[SlotMonster]

Originally Posted by Grey

I understand, that it is possible to feel this advantage only at not short and correct game.
But all the same, It's better.

I think the same things

[happygobrokey]

also, are we on #7, how did this not get mentioned?

7. some games require proper strategy to be working at 0%. if you don't make the right move every turn, you are giving the house an edge over you. for example, betfair's five card 21 must make exactly 21, not the 5-under-21 "charlie", so the decision when to hit for that must be played properly. this factor especially makes a composition-dependent strategy more necessary.

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also, they offer no-zero roulette because you can easily lose your ass at roulette and the zero only hits once or twice if there was one, so they'll still get your money, just a couple spins later. and if you have a winning session, then having a zero wouldn't have crushed you anyway. they can afford to give it to you basically.

8. unless it was mentioned, there might be a minimum bet limit as well to keep you from grinding an even money game at a buck a throw. not really an issue if you can deposit enough to have like 20 or more bets in your stack.

have fun!