Were they right to do so?

[tristan727]

What a load of rubbish - all casino's know some player's prefer other currencies, for either playing enjoyment or other financial reasons - and all allow it, to maximise their customer base, without it costing them an extra penny. Grand Theft Hotel obviously had some minor issue about it, and the owner inserted a nice term allowing him to take all of their money...letting C.S. deal with any complaints, whilst he goes off sailing in the bahamas - until the issue gets raised somewhere like here, and he has to pay back one or two customers mebbe & then all is forgiven & certain affiliate posters give him this for taking the time to resolve it.

[NASHVEGAS]

If it became more generally known that these online casinos were routinely confiscating winnings and STEALING even the original deposit under the guise of "voiding play", I would expect there to be increasing public and government support throughout the world for an outright BAN, (the American view), rather than trying to bring the industry into general acceptance as a valid entertainment offering.

First of all, great post. I thought alot of what you posted. I am just not sure I could articulate my thoughts with the ability you do but I am sure I do not have the patience to type such a legnthy post, kudos to you.....Per the quote above, I can only wish "the American view" but as was seen with the White Label Issue, Absolute Poker Issue, and other past and present issues, the playing public does not care (until it happens to him/her/it and then the fury) as they need their dopamine highs regardless and the industry knows it despite the BS propaganda studies by e-Cogra,etc........Earlier this evening, I mentioned in a conversation to a member of this board that the way that Frist did what he did was wrong but what he did was right! Do not blame the religious right on UIGEA, maybe some other agendas can be blamed but I really do not care......unfortunately to those that understand the real issues, the issues (and Board) seems to almost be a battle between a few players like yourself versus numerous affiliates,webmasters,casino reps.,etc. who imo exhibit cult like characteristics so who knows....It disheartens that the select few honest and quality casinos,affiliates,webmasters,etc. have become innocent victims.....I could keep going but then when would I stop???.....Obviously, I think am really done with onlines with maybe some occasional entertainment slot play......Others may not be done but if this industry does not learn how to regulate/self regulate they will be! There is way too much hubris throughout the online industry (kinda reminds me of the late 80's on Wall Street-great book's if history teaches anything are Liar's Poker and Barbarians At The Gate,you guys better learn quick)...The international trend already indicates that and do not blame your loyal players or even the so called fraudsters (kinda like a B and M blaming a professional cardcounter who may have the ability to grind away $100K/year)...not exactly bringing down those multi-billion dollar houses is it?.....Yep, I have taken all the fun out of online gambling

[Gaahl]

Doesn't seem like the casino is interested in replying me at all..

I just filed a dispute mediation to eCOGRA. Hope that they can do something about this.

It is not right that casinos imply these "FU" terms in their TC. Setting a trap for the player to walk right into... A guaranteed win for the casino, and a guaranteed loss for the player.

[peteyweestro]

NASH is absolutely right when he says americans just don't care unless it happens to then or theirs, and when it does thats when we get on the bandwagon but untill then it's so much "ah, so sorry for you but i gotta still get MY enjoyment"

[lojo]

NASH is absolutely right when he says americans just don't care unless it happens to then or theirs, and when it does thats when we get on the bandwagon but untill then it's so much "ah, so sorry for you but i gotta still get MY enjoyment"

This Yank cares

I doubt if Max or Bryan read every thread and Gaahl didn't ask them to look into it afaik.

So, please, Gaahl - keep the Board up to date when you learn something.

[Gaahl]

Sorry for not following up this case before now. I have had a pending dispute mediation with eCOGRA, therefor I have been reluctant to post any more posts here.

eCOGRA has finaly made a ruling, and that is that the Casino has to pay me back my deposit, not my winnings. I am glad that I atleast got my deposit back, but I am equally disapointed that it is OK for casinos to try and trick people with theese kinds sneaky terms and conditions. It just shows that Grand Hotel Casino doesn't care ONE INCH of the customer, other than taking their money, whatever means possible.

I will quote some of the points I made in my reply to Tex

1. What would have happened if I had ended up loosing my deposit before my account was closed? Would I still had my deposit refunded? My gut feeling tells me no. I put my money at risk, I could have lost, but I won, what does that have to do with what currency I play in? For a serious run operations this doesn't matter. Look at 32Red for example, they don't have sneaky terms like this.

2. Is it OK for a casino to try and trick people with sneaky terms and conditions? As I wrote in my first mail to you, as I live outside the EU, all currencies were illegal for me to play in. My question is, why did the casino let me register in the first place? It would take less then 1 line of programming to fix this, yet the casino havent. It is also another fact that I did not recive my deposit back before complaining to eCOGRA. There are many people out there who are not aware that eCOGRA exist, and therefor loose all their money to these sneaky terms and conditions.

Lojo: I took the liberty to quote your exelent view on this matter:

if the casino accepted a wager in seashells or cowdung they should pay the result in seashells or cowdung

It is quite clear to me that Grand Hotel Casino put this as a trap in their T&C to try and lure more people into the trap. In a note I can say that I recieved a sympathy PM from path saying that at 32RED I could play in whatever currency I felt like, and he even gave me a pile of free chips to play with. That is taking care of your customers.

After the case was "solved" I recived a PM from VegasVIP Lounge, which I find nothing but cheeky.

Should you need any further assistance do not hesitate to contact us...and don't forget to tell your friends about our great Customer Service!

Are they serious? They let me register and play in an "illegal" currency, they confiscate my winnings and my deposit. They refuse to pay me my winnings and to refund my deposit, I have an email from them saying this, and I even called them on the phone and they gave the same reply there. It was only after I contacted eCOGRA and made a post in here that they decided to refund my deposit. No winnings were paid back to me. And they still have sneeky TC.

yeah Natalie, I wil not forgett to tell my friend about your truly great Customer Service.............

[vinylweatherman]

You have told 40% of the player community about their "great customer service".

The problem with eCogra is that they take no account of whether terms are fair or not, but whether the casino acted within them. Generally, eCogra will insist on a return of deposit if the term invoked involves the "voiding of winnings", as in this case. I the case of fraud however, eCogra may allow the casino to keep some or all of a deposit to cover it's costs.

Casinos have far more freedom than they would have if they were judged by domestic consumer contract laws in the player's own countries. This now includes the UK, where from September 1st 2007 gambling debts lost their immunity from enforcement through the courts. This could be one reason why casinos have gone for whitelisting rather than full UK regulation, the other being a saving in tax.

Casinos that have these currency rules have tried to claim they are to prevent bonus abuse, but this has proven not to be the reason behind them as players who do not take bonuses also have their winnings confiscated.
Had you lost, you would NOT have got your deposit back, the casino would never have told you that your play was invalid for fear that you would reclaim your losses.
The fact this term continues to be "buried" rather than prominently displayed by casinos that have it shows they are indeed using it as a means to boost profits by taking advantage of unwary players who do not bother to scrutinise the terms each time they open an account.
One way to help players is to highlight such cases each time they occur, in the hope that more and more players will learn that they CANNOT assume that what the registration software says you can do, is actually allowed.
Casinos have long benefited from rules unsupported by the software, and the software suppliers certainly have the resources available to them to fix this issue for the protection of players, but they choose not to. The design and implementation of just ONE new game, is more complex than designing a foolproof registration system that would prevent players from making wrong choices, yet they can churn out 5 such games each month, but have yet to address this issue. It's clearly not a case of "can't be done", but "we don't want to do it".
If the software DID prevent players from making mistakes with registrations and bonuses, casinos would NEVER be in a position to validly use their "FU Clause" except in the few cases of genuine player fraud, over and above "bonus abuse fraud" which is the most common kind of "fraud".

[lojo]

I'm glad you followed through, Gaahl. At least you got your deposit back and exposed another incidence of this.

Now I hope they know that you'll never deposit there again and that 32Red has your future custom.

[vinylweatherman]

I'm glad you followed through, Gaahl. At least you got your deposit back and exposed another incidence of this.

Now I hope they know that you'll never deposit there again and that 32Red has your future custom.

Maybe 32red could use this as a marketing move. PROMINENTLY state that you CAN play in any currency you want, UNLIKE many other casinos. It would get them players who prefer other currencies, as well as inform site visitors that there is this issue of currency when playing online, an issue that was not evident before.

They could even run a special offer for new players who come to them after having winnings confiscated purely as a result of the currency trap. Players would have to submit proof of the confiscation, and then they could be made an individual offer to suit their tastes. They should be asked to pass verification before being given the offer, as there is a danger that bonus whores would exploit this by faking confiscation claims.

[Rusty]

Well done for following this up Ghaal, I hope that some of the support you got from members here gave you that extra incentive needed.
It is not just the money it is the principles involved.

Good luck at 23 RED