Oh my GOD! God d#mn cheaters!

[kimss]

That's a very good description of the real CHEATING casino software, such as Cassinova, Oyster, and "start-your-own-casino.com". It is also how UK "Fruit Machines" work...

I know all about fruit machines, and the way they work. However what I am explaining does not include preset positions and will not be possible to detect - that's the beauty of it. The only way you will accually "notice" it is that generally all players will end up within the same range of payout.

In my example the machine operates 100% random, meaning it's no way to predict anything.

The trojan (as I would like to call the cheating software) will sit in the background and kick in at a given trigger.

When the trigger is met, could be for example if payout exceedes 120% or goes below 80%. (to make that unpredictable you randomly seed the trigger from say 110 to 121, that would depening on your wagering be all from 100 to 100.000 spins).

The trojan could, to be most transparent, be instructed to manipulate the reels 1 time only so that it wont show in the stats. One spin in between a 1000 spins is invisible. In a 120% payout situation that would mean if you infact was lucky and got a great win from the RNG, it would surpress it. Sure, you could get one more - but usually we are looking for one, not getting it kills is. The other way would be, take Pharaoh's Tomb as example, when you get the bonus you are a sure winner for the jackpot.

Same principle as with a blackjack engine. Create a streaky engine, be sure to squeeze wins in when you wager low so that it's statistically correct that you loose on higher. There are many more ways. The point is that you can do alot of cheating, and it's not even possible to notice it, unless the software is extremely "greedy" and does it a little to much.

I hope you see the difference, and that it's nothing like fruit machines. Maby it's because Im a software developer that this is so obvious to me and that is the reason you do not see my point. I hope I clarified it now.

Edit:
When I think of it the different casinoes should hire me, I could make them make real money. No more "scatter" warnings, just pure random you think, and zoozie will never see it comming!

[gobucs]

I'm not sure if all of this is even that complicated, although it's quite informative to get a feel for the inner workings.
My theory is far more simplistic and requires less thought (which works well for me).
That theory is: The 97% payout percentage (for example) as advertised is a teaser, and completely irrelevant, or maybe it is relevant, only not in the way the player perceives it. This is a guarantee that no matter what, you will lose. For those of us who play for profit, this is not cool. What I find more revelant is the win/loss ratios. I'm speaking of Blackjack, as that is the only game I play. (again simplistic)The natural rythym of Blackjack does not exist online. This is because randomness does not take into account how much you're betting. It doesn't take into account how much I've already won/lost. In the world of randomness, you'll win your fair share of hands, no matter what you bet. It doesn't take into consideration, anything. RANDOM
The problem is with the win/loss figures, and their relation to the size of the wager or the aggressiveness of the player.
If I play 100 hands for $1 each consistently, there is typically less than a 3% variance in dealer vs. player wins/losses. If I bet $50 100 times that variance increases to upwards of 30% advantage to the house. Now this is a hypethetical example. A true example is: $1 bet 25 times dealer wins 10, I win 10, 5 pushes. I bet $10 25x and the dealer wins 19, I win 4, 1 push. Now I realize this is only 50 hands, but the proof is in the fact that after studying 100's of thousands of hands, from every conceivable angle, it never works the other way. I've never won 15 hands in a row, I've seen the dealer do it a dozen times. More importantly, the dealer wins 5,6,7,8 hands in a row way more than typical odds would dictate. The software will build your wins on small bets and theirs on larger bets, but I still see the dealer win many times in a row, very very frequently, and the player gets his wins 1 here 2 there, and so forth. On the occasion the player wins 5 or 6 in a row it's on smaller bets, and will stop abruptly as soon as the wager is increased. I know I'm not dreaming, crazy, or stupid. This is really happening. The only way to win anything is to consistently bet low and sneak in a larger wager occasionally. If you get consistenty aggressive, they will burn you every time. The software adjusts to the players aggression. REAL RANDOM!
And I have to ask, has anyone else seen the delay in the turn card? I'm seeing this more and more now a days, and after seeing that delay I almost always take a bad beat. I have 20 he sucks 21, I have 11 he has 6, I double he wins. I split when I should and I take it up the a** again. Has anyone else seen this?
gobucs

[NASHVEGAS]

I wish I could comment on all I have learned in the past couple of weeks, hopefully in due time. I still am trying to determine scientifically (without the paradoxical rhetoric that I have to date from professionals) whether some (not all) of the phenomenas gobucs mentions as well as additional phenomenas not mentioned by gobucs really exist in online BJ and why or is this simply an illusion (which casino execs and others have given me some valid reasons I assume why online BJ may be perceived differently than B & M BJ but online still offers a fair game).......Enzo of 3Dice has graciously worked with me and he has brainstormed (based on our correspondence and thoughts regarding the above) and he is going way beyond the call of duty with me in trying to address all the macro not micro issues I have presented about online BJ in general. Of course, I am not at liberty to divulge his brainstorming ideas pursuant to the above....Sorry as I am having to hold my tongue for multiple reasons (none of which are malice ftr) and I realize this post may not be clear to all.

[gobucs]

I just spent an hour putting together a hand history of my last session to post on this forum. By the time I was done I was kicked off and couldn't retrieve what I'd done. So let me put it this way:
D=Dealer, M=Me, P=Push, S=Surrender, BK=Blackjack,SP=Split

D-BJ
P
S
D-20
S-20
M
D
D-20
D-20
D-21
D-BJ
M
D-20
M
M
M-BJ
D
D
D
D
M
P
M
M
D
M
D-BJ
D-BJ
D
S
M
D-20
M
D
D-20
M
D-20
D
D-21
M
D-20
M-BJ
P
S
M
D
D-21
D-20
D
D
D-21
D-20
M-20
SP
M-21
D-BJ
M
D-20
D-21
P-20
M-20

Initially I had the bet amount for each hand and the cards. I won't do that again. Let's just say, it's not pretty from my perspective. I could provide thousands of game logs like this, but who's got time, and what good would it really do anyway. Apparently all of these criminals are above the law.
gobucs

[Kenny Lingus]

Let me just say this. I have witnessed some very peculiar runs of bad luck on casino games in the past. And I'm not talking about slots, but about playing card-based games, where the actual percentages in a fairly run game are easily calculated.

3Dice is the most recent casino (but certainly not the only one) that I believe that I have experienced this technique. It is subtle, for sure, but as a mathmatician I am very in tune with probabilities and nuances. The technique utilizes winning "runs" for the dealer as a way of eliminating a player's bankroll.

Realize first that the best advantage any casino has is their virtually inexhaustible bankroll (as compared to the player's). Even if the odds of a particular game were exactly even (between the player and casino) in their expected long-term payouts, the fact that the casino may have a 100, 1000, or even 10,000+ to 1 bankroll advantage to the player means that it would be extremely unlikely for the player to break the casino; however, a particular bad run would put the individual player out of business, especially at higher stakes. In a world of true-odds payouts, a casino could still make a profit just by breaking the player and winning his bankroll.

Now add to that a 2 to 5% house advantage. It would be very difficult to be a winner in the long run for the player at this disadvantage, as the more you play, the more you will lose on average. Combined that with the fact that the player's bankroll is finite and that the casino's is virtually infinite, you just will not see many winner's in the long run.

But casinos do have the problem of someone winning quickly or a large amount and cashing out or greatly reducing the size of their play. The last thing a casino wants is to lose a large bet, or string of bets, or a jackpot, and to have the player cashout without losing it back. Sure, they all know that they'll have to pay some of the players some of the time, but they really want to minimize a large hit or string of hits that leads to a large payout.

So enter a strategy of designing your games to appear consistent with the odds but one that yields far more victories or at least strings of victories to the house. Mathmatically, there are lots of different ways to do this. Many would not be detectable without knowing in advance what you were looking for, even by an in-depth review of the statistical results. But by eliminating the tendency for a player to get a good run while allowing the casino more lucrative runs of their own would virtually ensure the profits for the casino on most every player.

Do I have absolute (no pun intended) proof that this is actually occurring? No. But how many player's can swear to the fact that the casinos get way, way, way more runs of "luck" than they ever do?

[SlotsWizard]

If the following statement is true:

The software will build your wins on small bets and theirs on larger bets.

Then the following statement is false:

The only way to win anything is to consistently bet low and sneak in a larger wager occasionally.

If the code is rigged to make you lose, there is no way for that code to "look the other way" while you "sneak" in a larger wager. It will either know that you bet bigger or it won't.

And Kimss, as a fellow programmer, you could very easily solve this debate by creating your own fair blackjack game. Make it keep track of your bankroll and so that you can bet however much you want. Make it keep track of the return % (low point, high point, and overall), as well as dealer streaks, player streaks, and win:loss ratio for various bet sizes.

Now play several thousand hands.

Are you going to win every large bet and only lose small bets?
Are you going to win every small bet and only lose large bets?

No, it will all work out in the long run.

Saying that the casinos' RNG or software will automatically deal you predetermined wins and losses so that your long-term payback is around 95% or 97% or 99% is nonsense. The software doesn't need to do that because the mathematics takes care of it.

Believe me, I do understand what you all are saying, because I've had my fair share of "that's gotta be rigged!" moments, but when I look back at everything I've won playing blackjack, it really doesn't seem like it after all. Here was a kick-ass win from a total bet of $2,200 I made sometime last year:

MultiHandSpanishBlackjack.jpg

[kimss]

If the following statement is true:
Then the following statement is false:

Youa are not understanding what is said here. The point he is trying to make is that your would think that if you could get alot of losses on $1 you would have better chances of winning a streak of $100 wagering. However, my posted hands show this very much. How can you still say that the software doesnt alter behaviour when changing bets occure? You have example by example here from real gameplay.

His point was merely you would go for 1 win on higher stake and crawl back to $1 again.

It is obvious for me you still live in a dissilution that online BJ game behaves like a real shuffled card of decks. Are you on medication theese days, or problem seeing the hands? Maby you dont't have played blackjack, and if you cant with a real carddeck.

Take the tournament on 3Dince as spend some hours BJing and tell me what you think, see if you feel it's random. You will quickly see patterns emerging.

And Kimss, as a fellow programmer, you could very easily solve this debate by creating your own fair blackjack game. Make it keep track of your bankroll and so that you can bet however much you want. Make it keep track of the return % (low point, high point, and overall), as well as dealer streaks, player streaks, and win:loss ratio for various bet sizes.

What purpose would that solve? Just randomice the dech and deal the cards, keep a bankroll. If you are implying that my software would give the same streaks that appear in 3Dice, or the redicilous BJ at MG you must believe I run on Exctacy all day long. Sure I could, but then you would think my soware was rigged since I didnt get the results from MG og 3Dice. You don't need much IQ to piece together that not-random cards going on.

Are you going to win every large bet and only lose small bets?
Are you going to win every small bet and only lose large bets?

I'm not 5 years old, such arguments as theese are just dumb! Do I believe this or that is completely besides the point. The fact is that higher wagering is easier to loose than lower - from the same deck. Do as we others have done, take $1000 of your own money and jump from $10 wagering to $50 wagering and tell me afterwards when your broke if you won many of the $50 bets.

Saying that the casinos' RNG or software will automatically deal you predetermined wins and losses so that your long-term payback is around 95% or 97% or 99% is nonsense. The software doesn't need to do that because the mathematics takes care of it.

Believe me, I do understand what you all are saying, because I've had my fair share of "that's gotta be rigged!" moments, but when I look back at everything I've won playing blackjack, it really doesn't seem like it after all. Here was a kick-ass win from a total bet of $2,200 I made sometime last year:

Believe you me it doesnt sound like you understand me at all. Seems to me you are still fighting the original argument - do casinoes cheat. And then comes your retorical questions for dummies.

I did have a kickass streak at 3Dice aswell, however it was after the kickass streak in the houses favour.
Each time I try to convince myself you are correct, and I'm the fool, the casinoes are 100% trustworthy - I loose a few thousands.

Just like today, 32red. I got two big wins (remember my theory about 2 wins), I so wanted to believe - I could win more. After the second win I had around 2500 in the bank. Doing 5-10 wagering, and was broke in below 30 minutes.

Sure I was unlucky again! Last time it was almost 9000 I poored down the "just had 2 hgreat wins", then it was 7000. All in the past 2 weeks, all gone. So I get the wins, but its really anoying when the system sucks mne dry in almost every game - but I guess that also is random. Unlucky streaks do occure, strangely they ALWAYS occure after 2 good wins. Atleast it has for me the last 5 years in 10+ MG casinoes.

So don't come telling me it's random when same scenario happends again and again. Hearing other players saying the same doesnt make it better, it only adds fuel to the "fact" that this is the way the systems are RIGGED.

[SlotsWizard]

So don't come telling me it's random when same scenario happends again and again. Hearing other players saying the same doesnt make it better, it only adds fuel to the "fact" that this is the way the systems are RIGGED.

If it's "RIGGED" then why keep playing it?

[AussieDave]

Hi all,

This thread re-minds me of an exert from Homer Simpson...

He repeatidly puts his hand on the hot stove with the usual Homer break of Douh!!! followed by "hot stove"... Douh!!! "hot stove"...you get the picture

This thread shares the same characteristics.

the systems are RIGGED.

You obviously feel very strongly towards this statement.

Why keep burning yourself is a question that's on my lips!



Cheers

Trezz

[paul02085]

Anybody who believes all of this talk about being fixed is nuts to keep playing. Why dont you just quit?