Cracking the slot reels - Here you go!

[kimss]

Originally Posted by SlotsWizard

What's symbol 14?

SPECTACULAR SLOT REELS ARE VOID!

After doing some more studying on this there is something strange going on on theese reels. Seems that there are different layouts for each reel with the same symbols. One needs to map different symbols for each reel, therefore I void this setup. If there is an admin in here please delete the spectacular mapping from my previous post.

[BubbleG]

This is fascinting stuff... It would be great to do a perfect analyisis of some of the high varince slots like isis, slots could be catagorized using a whole new scale.

Suicidal Variance
Super Mega variance
Super Variance
High
Medium
Low
Smooth

I woulo also be interested to know the probabilities of hitting a 100,000 coin, 200,000 coin, 300,000+ coin win on the high variance slots like isis.

Some thoughts on weigted reels. Firstly I grew up in the arcades of the
UK and know all about games with a predetermined result. I just dont get the same feel from the 3 and 5 reel slots although I do totally agree the reels can appear weigthed.

Lets say we assume the online versions use similar or the same mechanics to the real life slots to determine their out come (based on the fact a real life slot is essentially a computer in a box using hardware reels to display the outcome instead of an image on screen) and lets also take another giant leap and assume the slots are genuinely random. If a reel only has 30 symbols there are not that many total outcomes compared to a reel with 100's even 1000's of symbols, of course in a casino size is paramount and a slot with 6000+ symbols on the reel would not fit in very well. So in reality instead of the rng picking 1 in 30 it could actually be picking one in x number of hundreds/thousands with each symbol having a propotional fixed number of values to its reel.

Blanks 2500
cheries 1500
single bar 1000
double bar 750
Triple bar 225
wild 25

So although the pick is random the reel appears weighted. Using them numbers the odds of hitting a wild on our hypothetical slot would be 240/1. This would also explain how it is possible to so often line up the JP on the above line, below line and every other line except the one that counts

Would be interested to see what the simulator says running reels using this setup varying the number of true symbols and fixed values of the reel symbols to see if it cn come out with figures comparable to published paytables and payout %

[Zoozie]

Originally Posted by SlotsWizard

Don't forget that this game pays left-to-right and right-to-left... I think you can just double the payout for all wins except five of a kind? It might be more complicated than that.

Winning Wizards, Oriental Fortune and "classic" Crazy Chameleons are all the same game.

This is a show stopper for the time being. Double the payout as you saw will work if the reels are symmetric.So maybe I have to implement right-to-left symbols also. (this is not that hard though)

Zoozie

[KasinoKing]

Originally Posted by BubbleG

I woulo also be interested to know the probabilities of hitting a 100,000 coin, 200,000 coin, 300,000+ coin win on the high variance slots like isis.

This is very easy to work out once you have the reel layout data.
That's why this thread is so brilliant!

Suppose you have a 5 reel slot with 30 symbols on each.
Each reel has just 1 jackpot symbol.
The chance of getting all the jackpot symbols on a winline is:-

30 x 30 x 30 x 30 x 30 = 1 in 24,300,000

Then simply divide by the number of winlines;
for example if it was a 15-line slot the odds would be 1 in 1,620,000

If one of the reels had 2 jackpot symbols, just divide the answer by 2; 1 in 810,000.

When you start to comprehend the size of these figures you'll understand why there are so very few jackpot shots in the Winner Screenshots thread!

You need to be very, very, very, very lucky!

[Simmo!]

Would anyone object if I logged the reel data on Slotjunkies for reference? If you don't, PM me any reel layouts and I'll add them as they arrive. If you do, then don't

[gerilege]

Originally Posted by gerilege

It's also interesting that in case of slots like that, it is possible to calculate the payout exactly, not just via simulations, because the number of possible combinations are not so high (248832 in case of 5 reel drive).

I made some quick calculations, and the results really amazed me if I'm correct and the above reels are correct:
Whatever the return percentage of this slot is, 78.125%point comes from scatter wins. Am I correct in the below calculations?
P(Exactly 3 scatters)=BINOMDIST(3;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.087890625
P(Exactly 4 scatters)=BINOMDIST(4;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.014648438
P(Exactly 5 scatters)=BINOMDIST(5;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.000976563

Win (3 scatters) = 0.087890625 * 5 = 0.439453125
Win (4 scatters) = 0.014648438 * 20 = 0.29296875
Win (5 scatters) = 0.000976563 * 50 = 0.048828125
Sum = 0.78125

So if we assume that the overall payback is 95%, than 82.2% of the total payback would come from scatter wins...

I worked on this issue, and although I have not completely checked my program written for counting all possible combinations (not just for scattersm but also for line wins), I'm quite condifent that either the posted reel sequence is incorrect or the reels are weighted in case of 5 reel drive. Otherwise the payout would be too high.

[Zoozie]

Small update for you folks.

The reels we once cracked for Thunderstruck and Tally Ho 1 year ago were correct. The reels Kimss provided are identical. (Actually there 2 reel fragments was switched on reel 5, but this does not matter for payout and both choices was possible from the reel puzzles).

Also we now know that Thunderstruck is the same that it was 1 year ago!

I will work a little more on it and upload it later. HO HO HO is will be included and is a little interesting because it is a very low variance slot.

Zoozie

[Zoozie]

Originally Posted by gerilege

It's also interesting that in case of slots like that, it is possible to calculate the payout exactly, not just via simulations, because the number of possible combinations are not so high (248832 in case of 5 reel drive).

I made some quick calculations, and the results really amazed me if I'm correct and the above reels are correct:
Whatever the return percentage of this slot is, 78.125%point comes from scatter wins. Am I correct in the below calculations?
P(Exactly 3 scatters)=BINOMDIST(3;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.087890625
P(Exactly 4 scatters)=BINOMDIST(4;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.014648438
P(Exactly 5 scatters)=BINOMDIST(5;5;1/4;FALSE)=0.000976563

Win (3 scatters) = 0.087890625 * 5 = 0.439453125
Win (4 scatters) = 0.014648438 * 20 = 0.29296875
Win (5 scatters) = 0.000976563 * 50 = 0.048828125
Sum = 0.78125

So if we assume that the overall payback is 95%, than 82.2% of the total payback would come from scatter wins...

Right on! Payout is 248% so I it is obvious this slot can not have uniform reels probabilites. Ie. reels are weighted OR wins are determined by other means and the reels are just showing positions matching the win amount.

This is a little shocking news for meand I am disappointed MG did this short-cut which is against the slot-ethics for video slots.
I have never played these simple 5 reels slots, but this weighting should be obvious. Ie. the middle reel has 1 wild and total 12 positions. So it should be visible 3/12=1/4 of the spins on each of these reels, and I do not think it is so. Also Kimss reported to me that he had a hard time hitting some positions on the reels, and maybe it was on these slots.



Analyzing 5 Reel Drive , iterating through all combinations to calculate payout%.
************** Analysis complete *************
Seconds running:1.1
Number of iterations:248832
Total cost:248832
Total added wins:641848
Number of feature starts:0
Base payback(no free spins):2.579443158436214
Probability for getting a feature each spin:0.0
Average number of spins each feature with retriggers (calculated):0.0
Average number of win each feature(in bet size):0.0
Total payout (excact!)= 2.579443158436214~ 257.94%

[gerilege]

Originally Posted by Zoozie

Right on! Payout is 248% so I it is obvious this slot can not have uniform reels probabilites. Ie. reels are weighted OR wins are determined by other means and the reels are just showing positions matching the win amount.

This is a little shocking news for meand I am disappointed MG did this short-cut which is against the slot-ethics for video slots.
I have never played these simple 5 reels slots, but this weighting should be obvious. Ie. the middle reel has 1 wild and total 12 positions. So it should be visible 3/12=1/4 of the spins on each of these reels, and I do not think it is so. Also Kimss reported to me that he had a hard time hitting some positions on the reels, and maybe it was on these slots.



Analyzing 5 Reel Drive , iterating through all combinations to calculate payout%.
************** Analysis complete *************
Seconds running:1.1
Number of iterations:248832
Total cost:248832
Total added wins:641848
Number of feature starts:0
Base payback(no free spins):2.579443158436214
Probability for getting a feature each spin:0.0
Average number of spins each feature with retriggers (calculated):0.0
Average number of win each feature(in bet size):0.0
Total payout (excact!)= 2.579443158436214~ 257.94%

Yes, I was almost sure yesterday when I checked the scatter wins that something was odd. Today I did not include the wilds when calculating the line wins (I also had to do the normal work for which I get paid ), and it was already over 100% point, plus the 78% from the scatter wins, already 178% at least, crazy. Tomorow I will add the wilds, so we can double-check our results, but 258% seems quite reasonable for me.

Needless to say, I'm also very disappointed, because MG was consistently stating that their video slots did not use such tactics.

[winbig]

It would be very interesting to see if they are weighted the same for free play.