Bonus -- advantage play -- etc.

[lojo]

I'd like to open a discussion about advantage play, bonuses, etc. that isn't directly related to a complaint thread. I have mixed feelings and thoughts about this issue and would appreciate anybody's and everybody's input.

Here's a thought or two.

If I can master the legalese of a bonus system and use it to my advantage, okay, but I won't cry foul if I miss something.

If I can master card counting and use it to my advantage, okay, and I won't cry foul if I skip a beat.

I guess what I'm saying is that if i use bonuses as an advantage player I am in the same league as if i were counting cards and better be as well prepared.

This is the tip of the iceberg. Any thoughts?

[winbig]

Counting cards online is useless due to the fact that the cards are "shuffled" after each hand....

Any reputable casino will pay you your winnings the first time, then will probably deny you any further bonuses...Rogues will simply not pay you..simple as that

There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...

Of course everyone can be classified as a bonus "seeker"...Bonuses are what sets casinos apart..

[lojo]

Counting cards online is useless due to the fact that the cards are "shuffled" after each hand....

Any reputable casino will pay you your winnings the first time, then will probably deny you any further bonuses...Rogues will simply not pay you..simple as that

There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...

Of course everyone can be classified as a bonus "seeker"...Bonuses are what sets casinos apart..

Makes perfect sense, WB.

Of course I was referring to counting cards as advantage play and trying to relate it to bonus 'advantage' play. Maybe I complicate things too much, and when this thread is fleshed out it will probably boil down to what you have just said.

It's a good position for casinos and players, but is ideal and black and white. You've been around here a long time so you've seen the shades of gray go through the crucible to become this black and white.

I'm struggling personally, for my own play, with the whole question (which I probably haven't phrased well, but you've read my posts? so you know.)

This could well become a volatile thread, but controversy is good and I'd rather try to keep my issues focused than spew all over the forum like I have in the past.

I'll rephrase it again and again until I understand it, or dry up and blow away.

Thanks for the quick response.

[happygobrokey]

card counters get tossed from casinos. so do alleged "abusers" of online casino bonuses.

the difference is, the casino offered you the advantage by giving a profitable bonus, so it is not your fault you're playing at a positive expectation.

so the two imo are not entirely the same. but i don't think you are speaking to the legitimacy of either type of play. perhaps you are saying that one must tread very lightly to be able to get away with either practice?

[EasyRhino]

Just tonight, I got backed off from a local casino for card counting. (actually, it was pretty crazy, they spotted me before I even could place a bet!). But anyway, they caught me fair and square, so them's the breaks.

And I've had online casinos prohibit me from using bonuses. That's their perogative. I've only had funds confiscated at one place, and that was one of the Crystal Palace casinos (I really should have known better). I might have an issue with one of the Virtual Group casinos right now, but I'm still working on it.

Of course, getting 86'd from either place is not the desired income. And if I was smoother about it, I'd still be allowed to play at more joints. Get burned out of enough places, and you're a dinosaur.

[NASHVEGAS]

Just tonight, I got backed off from a local casino for card counting.

ER, does Max Rubin still do the promo relations for Barona(sp) because he welcomes counters with good reasons. Using your brain is not illegal yet the public perceives counting as entirely illegal. Have you read Beat The Players by Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian who has fought back against the abuse of casino patrons. Yes, a casino can refuse service to anyone but the backrooming et al that goes on is a 100% violation of your constitutional rights although the Travel Channel implies time and time again to the public counting is illegal but abuse of a patron is acceptable. Until one walks in the shoes of an abused patron, they will never understand, period..........Bob, a couple years ago filed suit against the Griffin (mug shot) Book that 99% of casinos subscribed to. Bob's clients won the law suit with judgements and now the Griffin Book is history.

For full disclosure,I did retain the services of Bob Nersesian pursuant to several incidents that occured at the Venetian in 2005.

[rwaltham]

in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .i was getting a 400% bonus with 30x playthru out of 6 100 $ deposits i met the requirement once cashedout 500 not realizing the bonus is noncashable so after 30 plus hrs of play i havent recieved the payout yet but im expecting 90$ after they take the 400 $ bonus and the 10$ echeck fee.i finaly came to my senses started taking no bonus so if i hit early the winnings are mine to withdraw im not locked into some ridiculous playthrough number. since i stopped taking bonuses ive turned 600 into 1500 playing slots at 1$ a spin

[Vesuvio]

Lojo, it's pretty simple.

If a player meets the clear terms of a bonus - wager x amount on such and such a game - they should always be paid. The player is free to wager in any way he wishes.

Some casinos want to invent a term, "bonus abuse", to cover play which breaks no terms but, "we don't like" (i.e. it might let the player win).

If they use the term to lock players out of further play at the casino after paying a withdrawal, that's fine.

If they try to use the term to get out of paying winnings, they're rogue.

Of course the casinos want to try and muddy the waters to boost their profits, but there's no reason for us to go along with them

[Mike031]

in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .ii finaly came to my senses started taking no bonus so if i hit early the winnings are mine to withdraw im not locked into some ridiculous playthrough number.

I also don't take any "sticky" bonuses, but there are enough casinos, which give you "cashable" bonuses, so maybe you should take one of this?

Btw, on the most Microgaming Casinos you can withdraw your Cash-Balance on every time, so you must not fullfill the Wagering Requirement before you can cash-out your wins and that's really fair!

Here is an example for you: http://www.rubyfortune.com/bonusaccount/

[jetset]

I agree with Winbig (and Vesuvio above who says pretty much the same thing in greater depth) when he says:

Quote: There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...Unquote

Think of it as a contract - there's an offer (from the casino) followed by acceptance (the player wagering and his business being accepted by the casino) and then completion (the player complying with the T&Cs and then the casino paying him timeously)

Too many casinos lose sight of these straightforward fundamentals, take an emotional "the player should stay with us after the promo out of loyalty" view...or try to use this "bonus abuse" BS to rectify errors or ommissions on the part of their managers or staff.